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FTA: > Then he declared that there is another distinct problem — why the brain’s behavior is accompanied by experience at all — which he christened the “hard”

by pygy_ 5mo ago

FTA: > Then he declared that there is another distinct problem — why the brain’s behavior is accompanied by experience at all — which he christened the “hard” problem of consciousness. The hard problem isn't about "why", it's about "what it's like". Try to explain what it's like to hear a major and a chord to a deaf person, or what it's like to see magenta to someone who's blind. None of the things you say, sign or write will make them experience these sensations. Ultimately no one but you can know what it's like to be you. This doesn't mean that subjective experience can't be modeled. but the caveats that apply to models in general are relevant here too: none are correct, some are useful. Dualism doesn't necessarily means that subjectivity is ineffable. Mind and matter could work like mathematical duals: platonic solids (cube vs octahedron, dodecahedron vs icosahedron, tetrahedron vs itself), Voronoi diagrams and Delaunay triangulations, etc... These are intimately linked, and you can generate one from the other and inversely, yet they have their own distinct properties.

n4r9 5mo ago
Qualia is the term people often use to mean "what it's like". The hard problem is "why is there qualia". This of course assumes that qualia exists as a coherent thing, which some philosophers dispute.
- pygy_ 5mo ago
  Indeed, I didn't remember that Chamlers was literally building his argument around the "why?"... But he does. This reduces to the intractable mystery of existence. A more interesting question would be, as usual "how". There are serious attempts at this, coming from both neuroscience and physics (e.g. for the latter https://pubs.aip.org/aip/adv/article/15/11/115319/3372193/Universal-consciousness-as-foundational-field-A https://pubs.aip.org/aip/adv/article/15/11/115319/3372193/Un... )
themafia 5mo ago
> Try to explain what it's like to hear a major and a chord to a deaf person, or what it's like to see magenta to someone who's blind. I know this isn't what you wanted, but the dualism struck me: A major chord is like a blend of two base colors that give rise to a pleasant composite color. Mix the wrong bases and the result is sensibly wrong. Magenta is like when you play a D and an F# together. When you see it at sunset it's like a major D chord surrounded by the sound of babies laughing. When you see it on the battlefield it's like a minor D chord wrestling against the noise of wind and rain.
- pygy_ 5mo ago
  What is it like to experience synesthesia :-) These are very good analogies (and possibly experiences for those who are natural synesthetes), but even then, that won't make the who doesn't have the corresponding perceptual modality person experience that exact sensation.
- throw_m239339 5mo ago
  > A major chord is like a blend of two base colors that give rise to a pleasant composite color. Mix the wrong bases and the result is sensibly wrong. why does a major chord sounds pleasant? and why does a minor chord sounds "sad"? Why does the locrian mode sound so unsettling? is it due to our anatomy or purely cultural?
  - pygy_ 5mo ago
    And even then, in different contexts, a major chord can sound jarring and a minor one satisfying. That being said the nature/culture duality is often not the right way to frame these issues. It's both, intertwined.
    - jfyi 5mo ago
      Well, right, it's contextual. We each have a series of inputs that add up to these contexts. This doesn't mean it can't be explained, it just means there needs to be context. If you give the blind man a sensor that converts color data to something he can input, and then provide inputs giving the feeling you want to portray associated with that color, you have explained it. If you feel red is angry, all you need to do is play 400 to 484 THz into his instrument and yell at him angrily enough times for him to associate it. It doesn't seem too subjective to me.
      - pygy_ 5mo ago
        Color perception has nothing to do with light wavelength. Color is a subjective perceptual space. If you zap your occipital cortex with electromagnetic pulses, you'll experience color flashes (phosphenes). If a blind person who can read baille does the same, they'll experience tingling sensations in their fingers [1]. People can have visual experiences through somesthesic stimuli (you can give muddy waters divers sonar-based sight by stimulating their skin with an electrode array). AFAIK, it is not however know whether someone who was blind at birth and whose brain didn't learn to see could have such experiences. 1. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00221-007-1091-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00221-007-1091-0 full text: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/50371662/s00221-007-1091-020161117-21670-1hultq8-libre.pdf?1479383273=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DTMS_of_the_occipital_cortex_induces_tact.pdf&Expires=1779124952&Signature=QfUG1dW69By2oE0c~hL5aCh1jyriO0CNDeX4fKkb42PwtyiBxdFK8H~1IV6~oMsuktD5KlV5~6KZk1G0rbSXANTiMmvGI59BdUJPnkOu8GQ1g0JRiRvpdeunYhtfYRC~cpjW78v2Hg8fYISkNAcP3r4WF3YemfKZ4myYRKYFpd~Kqsb~6kkCIrxXeQlG7kvJKEYTfwiRmVBAoorhrBaCDGByDvmFSxs1Qyo7wWN5TbYTRMbDmyQn9ZtWN2ad7RGfgzL~kxeggI-alECqtqSm3FX1K3pK1TLjf8~f9UlJ18gXdQd5-sulD0m-dddyTO2N1pq3c9HGhCbuUjlor1~~oQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/50371662/s00221-007-10...

by pygy_ 5mo ago

n4r9 5mo ago

Qualia is the term people often use to mean "what it's like". The hard problem is "why is there qualia". This of course assumes that qualia exists as a coherent thing, which some philosophers dispute.

pygy_ 5mo ago
Indeed, I didn't remember that Chamlers was literally building his argument around the "why?"... But he does. This reduces to the intractable mystery of existence. A more interesting question would be, as usual "how". There are serious attempts at this, coming from both neuroscience and physics (e.g. for the latter https://pubs.aip.org/aip/adv/article/15/11/115319/3372193/Universal-consciousness-as-foundational-field-A https://pubs.aip.org/aip/adv/article/15/11/115319/3372193/Un... )

themafia 5mo ago

> Try to explain what it's like to hear a major and a chord to a deaf person, or what it's like to see magenta to someone who's blind. I know this isn't what you wanted, but the dualism struck me: A major chord is like a blend of two base colors that give rise to a pleasant composite color. Mix the wrong bases and the result is sensibly wrong. Magenta is like when you play a D and an F# together. When you see it at sunset it's like a major D chord surrounded by the sound of babies laughing. When you see it on the battlefield it's like a minor D chord wrestling against the noise of wind and rain.

pygy_ 5mo ago
What is it like to experience synesthesia :-) These are very good analogies (and possibly experiences for those who are natural synesthetes), but even then, that won't make the who doesn't have the corresponding perceptual modality person experience that exact sensation.
throw_m239339 5mo ago
> A major chord is like a blend of two base colors that give rise to a pleasant composite color. Mix the wrong bases and the result is sensibly wrong. why does a major chord sounds pleasant? and why does a minor chord sounds "sad"? Why does the locrian mode sound so unsettling? is it due to our anatomy or purely cultural?
- pygy_ 5mo ago
  And even then, in different contexts, a major chord can sound jarring and a minor one satisfying. That being said the nature/culture duality is often not the right way to frame these issues. It's both, intertwined.
  - jfyi 5mo ago
    Well, right, it's contextual. We each have a series of inputs that add up to these contexts. This doesn't mean it can't be explained, it just means there needs to be context. If you give the blind man a sensor that converts color data to something he can input, and then provide inputs giving the feeling you want to portray associated with that color, you have explained it. If you feel red is angry, all you need to do is play 400 to 484 THz into his instrument and yell at him angrily enough times for him to associate it. It doesn't seem too subjective to me.
    - pygy_ 5mo ago
      Color perception has nothing to do with light wavelength. Color is a subjective perceptual space. If you zap your occipital cortex with electromagnetic pulses, you'll experience color flashes (phosphenes). If a blind person who can read baille does the same, they'll experience tingling sensations in their fingers [1]. People can have visual experiences through somesthesic stimuli (you can give muddy waters divers sonar-based sight by stimulating their skin with an electrode array). AFAIK, it is not however know whether someone who was blind at birth and whose brain didn't learn to see could have such experiences. 1. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00221-007-1091-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00221-007-1091-0 full text: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/50371662/s00221-007-1091-020161117-21670-1hultq8-libre.pdf?1479383273=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DTMS_of_the_occipital_cortex_induces_tact.pdf&Expires=1779124952&Signature=QfUG1dW69By2oE0c~hL5aCh1jyriO0CNDeX4fKkb42PwtyiBxdFK8H~1IV6~oMsuktD5KlV5~6KZk1G0rbSXANTiMmvGI59BdUJPnkOu8GQ1g0JRiRvpdeunYhtfYRC~cpjW78v2Hg8fYISkNAcP3r4WF3YemfKZ4myYRKYFpd~Kqsb~6kkCIrxXeQlG7kvJKEYTfwiRmVBAoorhrBaCDGByDvmFSxs1Qyo7wWN5TbYTRMbDmyQn9ZtWN2ad7RGfgzL~kxeggI-alECqtqSm3FX1K3pK1TLjf8~f9UlJ18gXdQd5-sulD0m-dddyTO2N1pq3c9HGhCbuUjlor1~~oQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/50371662/s00221-007-10...