4 ms·

The article is low quality. It talks a bit about the problem, not about the cause and it does not help anyone. The example at the beginning seems to be a now c

The article is low quality. It talks a bit about the problem, not about the cause and it does not help anyone. The example at the beginning seems to be a now classic "I have a degree in an area where supply greatly exceeds demand". There is demand, there is supply, but there is a misalignment of qualifications and interests. If "well-qualified people" means fresh graduates in domains with low demand, then the qualification does not matter. In areas like constructions and handymen there is a serious shortage, if not a crisis, in the entire Western Europe. There are jobs, but not the ones most people want. Too many people go to universities for a degree without checking if there is demand for these degree. Many that I know go to universities just to have a degree, they don't even care what is the domain. I have a childhood friend that is regularly unemployed, he is a historian, but he does not like working in archeological sites and there is not enough need for historians. At the same time we cannot find enough people for construction works, it is hard work and most people don't want it (diversity and equality does not work in such jobs, never did).

skirge 5mo ago
I come from Eastern Europe. Teachers used to tell us that we had to go to university if we wanted to have an easier life later on.
- nephihaha 5mo ago
  We all got told this. The trouble is that it isn't always true. A good STEM degree could do, but so many others don't. Now we're seeing the slow death of some of the professions, and it's started with accountancy.
- AdrianB1 5mo ago
  Same for me; but what they did not tell, because it was not needed at that time, is that not everyone is capable of going to an university, the admission was tough and the school was hard, so people were filtered by capabilities. 20 years later universities doubled the number of students as they made it a business first, not education first, so we got too many people with worthless diploma and no qualifications and no potential.
Escapado 5mo ago
> Too many people go to universities for a degree without checking if there is demand for these degree. I agree for certain fields such as your example but until recently software engineers were in disproportional demand and that has changed pretty dramatically in less time than one would need to get a degree in the field. Edit: And the example of people working in construction: I know a few. Their companies are booked out for the next 2 years. They, however have shitty pay and disproportionately many work-caused health problems. The owners of those companies are having a good time though.
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  >They, however have shitty pay A 24 year old friend works construction, building and restoring facades and such. Makes 70-80k Euros/year with his own schwarzgeld overtime outside of work. It's on par with a senior SW engineer with 10YOE here. Hard work indeed, but not poorly paid. It's only poorly paid for unskilled positions in construction that are basically human carrying robots who haven't yet been automated.
noosphr 5mo ago
>There are jobs, but not the ones most people want. There is no such thing as a shortage in labor markets. There is just people not willing to pay the correct price.
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - sieiw 5mo ago
    If you think the market will clear simply by doing this then you’re utterly delusional.
  - piva00 5mo ago
    Does German welfare really pay generous benefits if people avoid working altogether? I really don't know much about it, I'd have assumed it follows a similar model to the Swedish one: you can be on benefits while searching for a job, there's even a government agency tasked with finding positions you might qualify, you are required to apply to X jobs a month, and if you get offered a job you need to take it or you will get benefits cut. Of course, there are ways to prolong it but it's definitely not enough to create major distortions, you will eventually run the clock out on the unemployment payments. Also to have decent unemployment you need to have contributed to an unemployment fund, there's a national one available to all citizens which doesn't pay much, otherwise you need to have funded the one provided by your union.
    - joe_mamba 5mo ago
      >Does German welfare really pay generous benefits if people avoid working altogether? As always, it depends on your definition and situation. If you're a highly skilled, ambitious worker, with a desire for a high standard of living, then no. If you're unskilled and unscrupulous and willing to game the system every step of the way(like some people I met), then being on welfare definitely pays better than doing unskilled labor, with the advantage you don't come home every day smelly and tired having to wake up early the next day for a long commute to go through this grind every day. >you will eventually run the clock out on the unemployment payments. You can prolong this indefinitely by destroying your mind and body with drugs and alcohol so you can go on disability benefits, and not worry about job interviews ever again, because nobody will hire you. >Of course, there are ways to prolong it but it's definitely not enough to create major distortions Yeah, NO, it definitely does major distortions. If welfare turns from a temporary safety net only used by a few and paid by many, to a system now many rely on long term and paid only by a few, then it ends up distorting everything: the tax system, the labor market, the rental market, government spending and debt, etc. all of which negatively affect a nation's economic competitiveness.
oytis 5mo ago
I dunno man, people are complaining about not being able to secure a vocational training position, especially as a foreigner. Maybe a bit of diversity and equality could help
- slaw 5mo ago
  Migrants to Germany account for 30.2% of the total population. Is Germany not enough diverse for you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany
  - oytis 5mo ago
    Yes, sorry, there is a lot of diversity of course, especially on the lower level. It's rather equality and inclusion that need improving. It's an anecdotal evidence, but while looking for a job I liked looking up employees on linkedin, then looking up the leadership on company's website. First one would always be much more diverse than the second one
    - slaw 5mo ago
      You didn't notice older people are Germans and younger migrants?
      - scihuber 5mo ago
        The Germans themselves chose not to have children.
        AdrianB1 5mo ago
        I think they were pushed not to have children, if that matters. Pushed via economical measures that made it very hard and pushed via education/indoctrination that kids are bad in multiple ways. My grandparents had many brothers and sisters each and life was harder back then, but it was easier to raise a large family than today. What changed? Taxes, with direct and indirect effects.
joe_mamba 5mo ago
[flagged]
- Tade0 5mo ago
  > Cut all welfare and government handouts, cut taxes on labor and on employment. Eastern Europe has the former, and as for the latter entrepreneurs in the industry just don't pay their taxes - ask me how I know. There's still a shortage.
  - AdrianB1 5mo ago
    I live in Romania and we have high taxes on labor (but very low for journalists, so they are happy) and we have labor shortage in some areas - in my grandparent's village it because a lot of young people are working in Germany and also because people don't have kids. But we have places where 1/3 of the inhabitants live on welfare and that is less than 100 km away, also in rural area.
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    >There's still a shortage. Yeah but for completely different reasons. Highly skilled workers from Eastern Europe go to US, London, Zurich to make big money there better than back home, and low-skilled workers from Eastern Europe go to Germany for the generous welfare and child benefits better than back home. I'm originally from Eastern Europe too. Countries like Poland, Czechia, Slovakia and the Baltics managed to avoid this outcome, but Hungary and those in the Balkans are kind of stuck in this downward spiral they can't get out of. They've already lost of lot of workers, both skilled and unskilled to the west, and local birth rates are shit and EU funding won't last forever. Any kind of economic miracle recovery similar to Poland seems out of the question now. Once the war in Ukraine ends, most EU funds will go there instead of the balkans so if they haven't built a strong economy by the time Ukraine enters the EU, they're truly fucked. Similar how East Germany was fucked after Poland entered the EU.
croes 5mo ago
And what happens with high demand and low supply? Strangely the wages don’t rise as one would expect. And companies are picky, they want a perfect fit for their position including the work processes and programs. Delusional.
- AdrianB1 5mo ago
  Are you sure the wages don't rise in high demand, low supply areas? We all just read the 7 figure salaries for people in AI stolen from one big company to another, what is that? Yes, companies are picky, but it is slowly changing. They cannot afford to be picky anymore, but change takes time.
  - croes 5mo ago
    Health care and construction have high demand but the wages raises aren’t that high, sometimes even lower than inflation
    - AdrianB1 5mo ago
      In my part of Europe doctors are paid extremely well. Construction workers also earn quite well given the lack of qualification required, a highway worker earns more than a junior developer and even more than many mid-level developers. The raise in these 2 sectors are definitely above the IT sector for the past 10 years.
watwut 5mo ago
> , he is a historian, but he does not like working in archeological sites Most historians who work as historians dont work in archeological sites, so I dont see how that part is relevant. > In areas like constructions and handymen there is a serious shortage, if not a crisis, in the entire Western Europe. There are jobs, but not the ones most people want. Are salaries going up? > it is hard work and most people don't want it (diversity and equality does not work in such jobs, never did) Like, you mean, immigrants wont be accepted if they apply? Cause wherever I was, these low level jobs were exactly the jobs where immigrants went first - they would hire literally almost anyone as they were not picky on language knowledge, cultural knowledge or even skills. All they asked for was time and ability to accept low salary with not too great conditions. But, if they wont accept immigrants on principle, the inability to find workers is their own problem. Native Germans has obviously more options.

skirge 5mo ago

I come from Eastern Europe. Teachers used to tell us that we had to go to university if we wanted to have an easier life later on.

nephihaha 5mo ago
We all got told this. The trouble is that it isn't always true. A good STEM degree could do, but so many others don't. Now we're seeing the slow death of some of the professions, and it's started with accountancy.
AdrianB1 5mo ago
Same for me; but what they did not tell, because it was not needed at that time, is that not everyone is capable of going to an university, the admission was tough and the school was hard, so people were filtered by capabilities. 20 years later universities doubled the number of students as they made it a business first, not education first, so we got too many people with worthless diploma and no qualifications and no potential.

Escapado 5mo ago

> Too many people go to universities for a degree without checking if there is demand for these degree. I agree for certain fields such as your example but until recently software engineers were in disproportional demand and that has changed pretty dramatically in less time than one would need to get a degree in the field. Edit: And the example of people working in construction: I know a few. Their companies are booked out for the next 2 years. They, however have shitty pay and disproportionately many work-caused health problems. The owners of those companies are having a good time though.

joe_mamba 5mo ago
>They, however have shitty pay A 24 year old friend works construction, building and restoring facades and such. Makes 70-80k Euros/year with his own schwarzgeld overtime outside of work. It's on par with a senior SW engineer with 10YOE here. Hard work indeed, but not poorly paid. It's only poorly paid for unskilled positions in construction that are basically human carrying robots who haven't yet been automated.

noosphr 5mo ago

>There are jobs, but not the ones most people want. There is no such thing as a shortage in labor markets. There is just people not willing to pay the correct price.

joe_mamba 5mo ago
[flagged]
- sieiw 5mo ago
  If you think the market will clear simply by doing this then you’re utterly delusional.
- piva00 5mo ago
  Does German welfare really pay generous benefits if people avoid working altogether? I really don't know much about it, I'd have assumed it follows a similar model to the Swedish one: you can be on benefits while searching for a job, there's even a government agency tasked with finding positions you might qualify, you are required to apply to X jobs a month, and if you get offered a job you need to take it or you will get benefits cut. Of course, there are ways to prolong it but it's definitely not enough to create major distortions, you will eventually run the clock out on the unemployment payments. Also to have decent unemployment you need to have contributed to an unemployment fund, there's a national one available to all citizens which doesn't pay much, otherwise you need to have funded the one provided by your union.
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    >Does German welfare really pay generous benefits if people avoid working altogether? As always, it depends on your definition and situation. If you're a highly skilled, ambitious worker, with a desire for a high standard of living, then no. If you're unskilled and unscrupulous and willing to game the system every step of the way(like some people I met), then being on welfare definitely pays better than doing unskilled labor, with the advantage you don't come home every day smelly and tired having to wake up early the next day for a long commute to go through this grind every day. >you will eventually run the clock out on the unemployment payments. You can prolong this indefinitely by destroying your mind and body with drugs and alcohol so you can go on disability benefits, and not worry about job interviews ever again, because nobody will hire you. >Of course, there are ways to prolong it but it's definitely not enough to create major distortions Yeah, NO, it definitely does major distortions. If welfare turns from a temporary safety net only used by a few and paid by many, to a system now many rely on long term and paid only by a few, then it ends up distorting everything: the tax system, the labor market, the rental market, government spending and debt, etc. all of which negatively affect a nation's economic competitiveness.

oytis 5mo ago

I dunno man, people are complaining about not being able to secure a vocational training position, especially as a foreigner. Maybe a bit of diversity and equality could help

slaw 5mo ago
Migrants to Germany account for 30.2% of the total population. Is Germany not enough diverse for you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany
- oytis 5mo ago
  Yes, sorry, there is a lot of diversity of course, especially on the lower level. It's rather equality and inclusion that need improving. It's an anecdotal evidence, but while looking for a job I liked looking up employees on linkedin, then looking up the leadership on company's website. First one would always be much more diverse than the second one
  - slaw 5mo ago
    You didn't notice older people are Germans and younger migrants?
    - scihuber 5mo ago
      The Germans themselves chose not to have children.
      - AdrianB1 5mo ago
        I think they were pushed not to have children, if that matters. Pushed via economical measures that made it very hard and pushed via education/indoctrination that kids are bad in multiple ways. My grandparents had many brothers and sisters each and life was harder back then, but it was easier to raise a large family than today. What changed? Taxes, with direct and indirect effects.

joe_mamba 5mo ago

[flagged]

Tade0 5mo ago
> Cut all welfare and government handouts, cut taxes on labor and on employment. Eastern Europe has the former, and as for the latter entrepreneurs in the industry just don't pay their taxes - ask me how I know. There's still a shortage.
- AdrianB1 5mo ago
  I live in Romania and we have high taxes on labor (but very low for journalists, so they are happy) and we have labor shortage in some areas - in my grandparent's village it because a lot of young people are working in Germany and also because people don't have kids. But we have places where 1/3 of the inhabitants live on welfare and that is less than 100 km away, also in rural area.
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  >There's still a shortage. Yeah but for completely different reasons. Highly skilled workers from Eastern Europe go to US, London, Zurich to make big money there better than back home, and low-skilled workers from Eastern Europe go to Germany for the generous welfare and child benefits better than back home. I'm originally from Eastern Europe too. Countries like Poland, Czechia, Slovakia and the Baltics managed to avoid this outcome, but Hungary and those in the Balkans are kind of stuck in this downward spiral they can't get out of. They've already lost of lot of workers, both skilled and unskilled to the west, and local birth rates are shit and EU funding won't last forever. Any kind of economic miracle recovery similar to Poland seems out of the question now. Once the war in Ukraine ends, most EU funds will go there instead of the balkans so if they haven't built a strong economy by the time Ukraine enters the EU, they're truly fucked. Similar how East Germany was fucked after Poland entered the EU.

croes 5mo ago

And what happens with high demand and low supply? Strangely the wages don’t rise as one would expect. And companies are picky, they want a perfect fit for their position including the work processes and programs. Delusional.

AdrianB1 5mo ago
Are you sure the wages don't rise in high demand, low supply areas? We all just read the 7 figure salaries for people in AI stolen from one big company to another, what is that? Yes, companies are picky, but it is slowly changing. They cannot afford to be picky anymore, but change takes time.
- croes 5mo ago
  Health care and construction have high demand but the wages raises aren’t that high, sometimes even lower than inflation
  - AdrianB1 5mo ago
    In my part of Europe doctors are paid extremely well. Construction workers also earn quite well given the lack of qualification required, a highway worker earns more than a junior developer and even more than many mid-level developers. The raise in these 2 sectors are definitely above the IT sector for the past 10 years.

watwut 5mo ago

> , he is a historian, but he does not like working in archeological sites Most historians who work as historians dont work in archeological sites, so I dont see how that part is relevant. > In areas like constructions and handymen there is a serious shortage, if not a crisis, in the entire Western Europe. There are jobs, but not the ones most people want. Are salaries going up? > it is hard work and most people don't want it (diversity and equality does not work in such jobs, never did) Like, you mean, immigrants wont be accepted if they apply? Cause wherever I was, these low level jobs were exactly the jobs where immigrants went first - they would hire literally almost anyone as they were not picky on language knowledge, cultural knowledge or even skills. All they asked for was time and ability to accept low salary with not too great conditions. But, if they wont accept immigrants on principle, the inability to find workers is their own problem. Native Germans has obviously more options.