3 ms·

Jokes on FT, we have both

by oytis 5mo ago

fuzzybear3965 5mo ago
"We" refers to Germany?
- oytis 5mo ago
  Yes
- hugh-avherald 5mo ago
  We are all Berliners.
zelphirkalt 5mo ago
I am not so sure we really have or had both. Maybe for roles like electrician and tiler and such. But for roles like teachers, I feel it is not the case, or policy makers are extremely stupid here. The hurdles for someone to become a teacher without having studied that are still very high. It doesn't seem like policies a nation would implement, if they really wanted more teachers. For example you need to have 500h of base level pedagogy training (which would be OK) and of course you need to be very knowledgeable in the subject you want to teach (also makes sense), but that's not enough, no, they want, that usually after 3 years you teach 2 subjects, not only the one you are knowledgeable in. So you are expected to either have sufficient knowledge (lectures at university count towards that, but may well not be sufficient) in a second subject, or to somehow catch up on that. In my case, I did consider becoming a teacher for IT stuff. Not really "IT", as pupils would first learn the basics of course, and the really interesting stuff might not even fit into the curriculum, but I could well imagine teaching what I know and maybe even establishing an extracurricular computer programming club or something. I would feel great passing on my knowledge. But what second subject to teach? ... The only other applicable thing I had in some amount during my studies is ... math. Ugh. You telling me I might have to take additional math lectures, with people who study to become math teachers?! No friggin way man. Also am not a native English speaker, and while I use English every day all day long, I don't think I have the detailed knowledge to teach it responsibly to students, unless they are total beginners, but I won't be teaching IT stuff in primary school, now will I. If you stick to only one subject, perhaps they will tolerate you, but your salary will forever be a reduced one, even if you work the same hours, just because you only do one subject, and no matter how much of an expert you are. When it comes to IT/software engineering I don't think there ever was a shortage. Just businesses, implementing big tech hiring processes for their tiny startups and then playing surprised pikachu, that they are "not finding talent".
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  > It doesn't seem like policies a nation would implement, if they really wanted more teachers. Aren't those hurdles put in by teachers' unions to ensure they maintain a leverage over their jobs market? Same is for doctors, notaries, etc in a lot of countries.
  - watwut 5mo ago
    None of what he listed is some kind of outrageous demand. You can disagree about the "two subjects" thing and it would be valid disagreement, but hardly an outrageous one. A teacher teaching two subjects is not even some kind of German specific thing.
- HPsquared 5mo ago
  I imagine the doctors situation is the same. Also the houses situation.
- rmetzler 5mo ago
  https://www.heise.de/news/20-Jahre-unbemerkt-1440-Lehrerstellen-nur-virtuell-besetzt-10491072.html https://www.heise.de/news/20-Jahre-unbemerkt-1440-Lehrerstel...
- cardanome 5mo ago
  Policy makers are not stupid, the system is working as intended. The intention is to destroy public education in favor of private schools. Same as public health care has been systematically destroyed. It's all part of the neoliberal agenda. Or take mental health care. We have enough therapists but we don't allow them to work with patients on public health care. We give that license only to a select few ensuring that people wait 6 months to a year if they want to get a therapy spot. Otherwise too many people would get therapy and that would cost money. The goal is to make rich people richer and ensure they have enough desperate and cheap labor to exploit.
- soco 5mo ago
  In comparison, Switzerland recognized the problems in the education system and... I know somebody, former construction foreman, now working as a primary school teacher - also doing some pedagogy courses in parallel. Is this better? Probably better than nothing, although far from ideal. But, would it be smarter to just wait, waist deep in the dumpster, for ideal solutions?
ofrzeta 5mo ago
Fachkräftemangel is just a joke, you know. There are enough Fachkräfte for everything.
- moepstar 5mo ago
  No, there’s only enough Bundestrainer every other world championship…
- PurpleRamen 5mo ago
  No, there are never enough experts for everything. I mean, how can there ever be enough 18 year old workers, fresh from college, with 20 years experience on a technology which will only be released next month, who are willing to work for minimum wage and a rotten fruit basket while upskilling themselves in their own private time?

Jokes on FT, we have both

by oytis 5mo ago

Jokes on FT, we have both

fuzzybear3965 5mo ago

"We" refers to Germany?

oytis 5mo ago
Yes
hugh-avherald 5mo ago
We are all Berliners.

zelphirkalt 5mo ago

I am not so sure we really have or had both. Maybe for roles like electrician and tiler and such. But for roles like teachers, I feel it is not the case, or policy makers are extremely stupid here. The hurdles for someone to become a teacher without having studied that are still very high. It doesn't seem like policies a nation would implement, if they really wanted more teachers. For example you need to have 500h of base level pedagogy training (which would be OK) and of course you need to be very knowledgeable in the subject you want to teach (also makes sense), but that's not enough, no, they want, that usually after 3 years you teach 2 subjects, not only the one you are knowledgeable in. So you are expected to either have sufficient knowledge (lectures at university count towards that, but may well not be sufficient) in a second subject, or to somehow catch up on that. In my case, I did consider becoming a teacher for IT stuff. Not really "IT", as pupils would first learn the basics of course, and the really interesting stuff might not even fit into the curriculum, but I could well imagine teaching what I know and maybe even establishing an extracurricular computer programming club or something. I would feel great passing on my knowledge. But what second subject to teach? ... The only other applicable thing I had in some amount during my studies is ... math. Ugh. You telling me I might have to take additional math lectures, with people who study to become math teachers?! No friggin way man. Also am not a native English speaker, and while I use English every day all day long, I don't think I have the detailed knowledge to teach it responsibly to students, unless they are total beginners, but I won't be teaching IT stuff in primary school, now will I. If you stick to only one subject, perhaps they will tolerate you, but your salary will forever be a reduced one, even if you work the same hours, just because you only do one subject, and no matter how much of an expert you are. When it comes to IT/software engineering I don't think there ever was a shortage. Just businesses, implementing big tech hiring processes for their tiny startups and then playing surprised pikachu, that they are "not finding talent".

joe_mamba 5mo ago
> It doesn't seem like policies a nation would implement, if they really wanted more teachers. Aren't those hurdles put in by teachers' unions to ensure they maintain a leverage over their jobs market? Same is for doctors, notaries, etc in a lot of countries.
- watwut 5mo ago
  None of what he listed is some kind of outrageous demand. You can disagree about the "two subjects" thing and it would be valid disagreement, but hardly an outrageous one. A teacher teaching two subjects is not even some kind of German specific thing.
HPsquared 5mo ago
I imagine the doctors situation is the same. Also the houses situation.
rmetzler 5mo ago
https://www.heise.de/news/20-Jahre-unbemerkt-1440-Lehrerstellen-nur-virtuell-besetzt-10491072.html https://www.heise.de/news/20-Jahre-unbemerkt-1440-Lehrerstel...
cardanome 5mo ago
Policy makers are not stupid, the system is working as intended. The intention is to destroy public education in favor of private schools. Same as public health care has been systematically destroyed. It's all part of the neoliberal agenda. Or take mental health care. We have enough therapists but we don't allow them to work with patients on public health care. We give that license only to a select few ensuring that people wait 6 months to a year if they want to get a therapy spot. Otherwise too many people would get therapy and that would cost money. The goal is to make rich people richer and ensure they have enough desperate and cheap labor to exploit.
soco 5mo ago
In comparison, Switzerland recognized the problems in the education system and... I know somebody, former construction foreman, now working as a primary school teacher - also doing some pedagogy courses in parallel. Is this better? Probably better than nothing, although far from ideal. But, would it be smarter to just wait, waist deep in the dumpster, for ideal solutions?

ofrzeta 5mo ago

Fachkräftemangel is just a joke, you know. There are enough Fachkräfte for everything.

moepstar 5mo ago
No, there’s only enough Bundestrainer every other world championship…
PurpleRamen 5mo ago
No, there are never enough experts for everything. I mean, how can there ever be enough 18 year old workers, fresh from college, with 20 years experience on a technology which will only be released next month, who are willing to work for minimum wage and a rotten fruit basket while upskilling themselves in their own private time?