6 ms·

I'm talking about the vowel sound, not the consonant sound. Of course φ was more like an aspirated π, that's why the letter φ is transliterated as ph (p with an

I'm talking about the vowel sound, not the consonant sound. Of course φ was more like an aspirated π, that's why the letter φ is transliterated as ph (p with an aspiration mark which is the h). χ was also originally transliterated as kh, as it sounded more than an aspirated "k". I'm not sure about the consonant sound of "ψ" though. Certainly not "s" of course (the "p" in "ps" is not silent in modern Greek, and it most certainly wasn't silent in ancient Greek either). π, φ, χ, ψ never rhymed with pie though. That was my focus there. Regarding the "αυ" sound: Same as all the original diphthongs such as "ου", "αι", "οι" etc. sounds, the "ι", "υ" etc were mostly supplemental/modifiers to the first vowel (also υ sounded more like e.g. modern German ü or indeed modern German y Ι guess). They were indeed never disyllabic. EDIT: I think the transformation of some diphthongs had already started by the time the Roman empire conquered Greece, so ta-oo might have been closer to the pronunciation at that time. But Roman times are not classical times, they are after the Hellenistic times which changed so much already (I think iotacisation happened during that time?). Koine Greek started off as more like Ancient Greek pronunciation and ended up as Modern Greek pronunciation.

thaumasiotes 5mo ago
> Regarding the "αυ" sound: Same as all the original diphthongs such as "ου", "αι", "οι" etc. sounds, the "ι", "υ" etc were mostly supplemental/modifiers to the first vowel (also υ sounded more like e.g. modern German ü or indeed modern German y Ι guess). > EDIT: I think the transformation of some diphthongs had already started by the time the Roman empire conquered Greece, so ta-oo might have been closer to the pronunciation at that time. Vox Graeca says the opposite in regard to upsilon: >> In both αυ and ευ the υ preserved its original quality as a back [u], i.e. it was not fronted to [ü] as elsewhere https://archive.org/details/allen-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek/Allen%20Vox%20Graeca%20the-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Greek/page/76/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/allen-vox-graeca-the-pronunciati... [page 76] (The reason this statement isn't also applied to ου is not that the upsilon is fronted - it's that in ου, the upsilon is lost.) Upsilon by itself began as [u] and developed into [y], but diphthongs ending in it didn't follow that development. Tau starts with the pronunciation /tau/ and stays that way.
- gschizas 5mo ago
  Technically, the υ in both αυ and ευ diphthongs were approximations of the w (waw) sound. Which is a sound between oo and w. The sound still exists in isolated dialects, e.g. Tsakonic dialect which is a descendant of Doric dialect. Obviously saying it's stayed that way is wrong on its own, since it had converted to taf as early as 500 CE, in the branch that led to modern Greek. The branch that followed Latinization and Anglicization (much later) converted the unpronounceable waw sound to plain "oo"
  - thaumasiotes 5mo ago
    > Technically, the υ in both αυ and ευ diphthongs were approximations of the w (waw) sound. Which is a sound between oo and w. What? There is no sound "between" /u/ and /w/; they are the same sound. We call that sound /u/ in the nucleus of a syllable and /w/ in the onset. > Obviously saying it's stayed that way is wrong on its own, since it had converted to taf as early as 500 CE Early?? You were talking about ancient Greek. Are you calling 500 AD "ancient Greek"? At that point the ancient, classical, Hellenistic, and Roman periods have all concluded. You can call it koine. It's the end of koine.
    - gschizas 5mo ago
      > What? There is no sound "between" /u/ and /w/; Huh? "oo" is a very different sound than "w". One is a vowel, one is mostly/technically a consonant, I'd say mostly related to the modern γ/gamma sound! One is spoken with open mouth, for the other you put the back of your tongue on the roof of your mouth. > Early?? You were talking about ancient Greek. Are you calling 500 AD "ancient Greek"? At that point the ancient, classical, Hellenistic, and Roman periods have all concluded. You can call it koine. It's the end of koine. I think I might have confused CE with BCE. In my defense, I was writing on mobile. I mean 500 years *before* the birth of Christ. It was certainly taf in early medieval Greek of course, but my point was indeed that it was also taf in some Ancient Greek dialects. I'm saying that the notion that "tau" was always and forever ta-oo (two syllables, open /u/ sound) is wrong. It might be right on the branch of pronunciation that was mixed with Latin and later English (and only AFTER it was converted for use from Latin speakers), but not in the branch that started with archaic Greek and led to modern Greek. The fact of the matter is that there aren't two distinct languages, Ancient Greek and Modern Greek. The language evolved naturally and gradually (granted, with a very accelerated pace in the Hellinistic/Koine period). The distinction of Ancient and Modern Greek is a modern educational tool. There is a branch that led to "ta-oo" and "pie" (that's apparently only the English pronunciation), but since it's been converted to be used by Latin (and English) speakers, it's really a Latin adaptation of Greek.

thaumasiotes 5mo ago

> Regarding the "αυ" sound: Same as all the original diphthongs such as "ου", "αι", "οι" etc. sounds, the "ι", "υ" etc were mostly supplemental/modifiers to the first vowel (also υ sounded more like e.g. modern German ü or indeed modern German y Ι guess). > EDIT: I think the transformation of some diphthongs had already started by the time the Roman empire conquered Greece, so ta-oo might have been closer to the pronunciation at that time. Vox Graeca says the opposite in regard to upsilon: >> In both αυ and ευ the υ preserved its original quality as a back [u], i.e. it was not fronted to [ü] as elsewhere https://archive.org/details/allen-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek/Allen%20Vox%20Graeca%20the-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Greek/page/76/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/allen-vox-graeca-the-pronunciati... [page 76] (The reason this statement isn't also applied to ου is not that the upsilon is fronted - it's that in ου, the upsilon is lost.) Upsilon by itself began as [u] and developed into [y], but diphthongs ending in it didn't follow that development. Tau starts with the pronunciation /tau/ and stays that way.

gschizas 5mo ago
Technically, the υ in both αυ and ευ diphthongs were approximations of the w (waw) sound. Which is a sound between oo and w. The sound still exists in isolated dialects, e.g. Tsakonic dialect which is a descendant of Doric dialect. Obviously saying it's stayed that way is wrong on its own, since it had converted to taf as early as 500 CE, in the branch that led to modern Greek. The branch that followed Latinization and Anglicization (much later) converted the unpronounceable waw sound to plain "oo"
- thaumasiotes 5mo ago
  > Technically, the υ in both αυ and ευ diphthongs were approximations of the w (waw) sound. Which is a sound between oo and w. What? There is no sound "between" /u/ and /w/; they are the same sound. We call that sound /u/ in the nucleus of a syllable and /w/ in the onset. > Obviously saying it's stayed that way is wrong on its own, since it had converted to taf as early as 500 CE Early?? You were talking about ancient Greek. Are you calling 500 AD "ancient Greek"? At that point the ancient, classical, Hellenistic, and Roman periods have all concluded. You can call it koine. It's the end of koine.
  - gschizas 5mo ago
    > What? There is no sound "between" /u/ and /w/; Huh? "oo" is a very different sound than "w". One is a vowel, one is mostly/technically a consonant, I'd say mostly related to the modern γ/gamma sound! One is spoken with open mouth, for the other you put the back of your tongue on the roof of your mouth. > Early?? You were talking about ancient Greek. Are you calling 500 AD "ancient Greek"? At that point the ancient, classical, Hellenistic, and Roman periods have all concluded. You can call it koine. It's the end of koine. I think I might have confused CE with BCE. In my defense, I was writing on mobile. I mean 500 years *before* the birth of Christ. It was certainly taf in early medieval Greek of course, but my point was indeed that it was also taf in some Ancient Greek dialects. I'm saying that the notion that "tau" was always and forever ta-oo (two syllables, open /u/ sound) is wrong. It might be right on the branch of pronunciation that was mixed with Latin and later English (and only AFTER it was converted for use from Latin speakers), but not in the branch that started with archaic Greek and led to modern Greek. The fact of the matter is that there aren't two distinct languages, Ancient Greek and Modern Greek. The language evolved naturally and gradually (granted, with a very accelerated pace in the Hellinistic/Koine period). The distinction of Ancient and Modern Greek is a modern educational tool. There is a branch that led to "ta-oo" and "pie" (that's apparently only the English pronunciation), but since it's been converted to be used by Latin (and English) speakers, it's really a Latin adaptation of Greek.