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I mean.... Android is aosp. And if you want to run degoogled GrapheneOS you just don't install Google services. Out of the box it does NOT contain any - but /e/

I mean.... Android is aosp. And if you want to run degoogled GrapheneOS you just don't install Google services. Out of the box it does NOT contain any - but /e/OS ships with the privileged microG, which means that Android Auto or Google Play Store have privileged access to the phone. So I'm not sure how can you suggest GOS is less "degoogled" while not shipping anything but allowing to install sandboxed / constrained play services, while comparing it to /e/OS which ships with a privileged plug. Also, if you want to run a secure android, that's not /e/OS either.

bornfreddy 5mo ago
That privileged plug in /e/os makes push notifications work, and you can enable just those and leave Android Auto, G Play Store and whatnot disabled. Not much privacy risk - I think? On the other hand, while GOS is running Google services sandboxed, they are still running and have access to internet. If you try enabling them only when you need push notifications, they will break - notifications stop coming. Neither system is optimal - can we please get microG sandboxed on GOS, pretty please?
- microtonal 5mo ago
  Ehm, microG on /e/OS is talking to Google all the time. They also use proprietary Google blobs for passing basic Play Integrity. /e/OS also gives a bunch of Google apps (including Google Maps and Android Auto) privileged access (you can find the signing key fingerprints in the source code of the /e/OS microG fork).
  - bornfreddy 5mo ago
    No Google Maps or Android Auto on my phones, so I don't care much about privileged access - they have none anyway. No, microG is definitely not talking to Google all the time, NetGuard would warn me if it did. I would assume it is not even running when I disable it (which is easily done, as opposed to stopping Google Services in GrapheneOS) - but to be fair I didn't actually validate that. I kind of like GrapheneOS otherwise, this is by far my biggest gripe. I can even survive the icons. But avoiding Google (and other big tech) is the reason I am not on a cheaper and more convenient phone with regular Android, so if GrapheneOS refuses to support an alternative to Google Play Services, I'm not too happy about it. If there are real problems with microG then I'm sure the authors would be interested in a better solution too.
    - akimbostrawman 5mo ago
      >No Google Maps or Android Auto on my phones, so I don't care much about privileged access - they have none anyway. You don't seem to understand how play service / MicroG work. Maps or Auto Apps aren't the ones having the privilaged access but Play Service and MicroG. >NetGuard would warn me if it did. I would assume it is not even running when I disable it Since play services/microg have higher privileges than NetGuard they could just bypass it. >But avoiding Google (and other big tech) is the reason I am not on a cheaper and more convenient phone with regular Android, so if GrapheneOS refuses to support an alternative to Google Play Services, I'm not too happy about it. If there are real problems with microG then I'm sure the authors would be interested in a better solution too. That doesn't make any sense at all. GrapheneOS by default has _0_ Google connections unlike LineageOS, /E/ or any other AOSP fork. MicroG is not an alternative to not using play services at all = actually avoiding Google, but a open source reimplementation that still has all the privacy and security issues of regular play services. GrapheneOS sandboxes Google play services only have the privacy issues since just like with MicroG you still connect to Google = not actually avoiding Google. The issue with no notification without play services can be easily fixed by not using privacy hostile apps which only work with them.
      - bornfreddy 5mo ago
        You are missing the point. MicroG allows me to disable it when I want to, and push notifications still work when I (rarely) need to enable it. It's not about security, it is about privacy. While MicroG in theory could bypass NetGuard, I very much doubt that anyone would bother. My privacy is not that precious. But as I said, neither solution is great. How about sandboxing MicroG too?
        akimbostrawman 5mo ago
        There is no privacy advantage by using MicroG compared to Google play services. You still connect to there service all the same giving privileged access to your device. There is a security AND privacy advantage by using sandboxed google play because they limit the kind of system access it has compared to MicroG/play services. Again the only advantage of MicroG compared to play services is that it's open source, you still have all the same privacy and security issues. Its already a lot of work to support the official play services and make them work in a sandbox, supporting another layer in between is more headache than its worth it or they have time/money for. Not to mention that sandboxed play services work with much more feature than MicroG such as android auto.

bornfreddy 5mo ago

That privileged plug in /e/os makes push notifications work, and you can enable just those and leave Android Auto, G Play Store and whatnot disabled. Not much privacy risk - I think? On the other hand, while GOS is running Google services sandboxed, they are still running and have access to internet. If you try enabling them only when you need push notifications, they will break - notifications stop coming. Neither system is optimal - can we please get microG sandboxed on GOS, pretty please?

microtonal 5mo ago
Ehm, microG on /e/OS is talking to Google all the time. They also use proprietary Google blobs for passing basic Play Integrity. /e/OS also gives a bunch of Google apps (including Google Maps and Android Auto) privileged access (you can find the signing key fingerprints in the source code of the /e/OS microG fork).
- bornfreddy 5mo ago
  No Google Maps or Android Auto on my phones, so I don't care much about privileged access - they have none anyway. No, microG is definitely not talking to Google all the time, NetGuard would warn me if it did. I would assume it is not even running when I disable it (which is easily done, as opposed to stopping Google Services in GrapheneOS) - but to be fair I didn't actually validate that. I kind of like GrapheneOS otherwise, this is by far my biggest gripe. I can even survive the icons. But avoiding Google (and other big tech) is the reason I am not on a cheaper and more convenient phone with regular Android, so if GrapheneOS refuses to support an alternative to Google Play Services, I'm not too happy about it. If there are real problems with microG then I'm sure the authors would be interested in a better solution too.
  - akimbostrawman 5mo ago
    >No Google Maps or Android Auto on my phones, so I don't care much about privileged access - they have none anyway. You don't seem to understand how play service / MicroG work. Maps or Auto Apps aren't the ones having the privilaged access but Play Service and MicroG. >NetGuard would warn me if it did. I would assume it is not even running when I disable it Since play services/microg have higher privileges than NetGuard they could just bypass it. >But avoiding Google (and other big tech) is the reason I am not on a cheaper and more convenient phone with regular Android, so if GrapheneOS refuses to support an alternative to Google Play Services, I'm not too happy about it. If there are real problems with microG then I'm sure the authors would be interested in a better solution too. That doesn't make any sense at all. GrapheneOS by default has _0_ Google connections unlike LineageOS, /E/ or any other AOSP fork. MicroG is not an alternative to not using play services at all = actually avoiding Google, but a open source reimplementation that still has all the privacy and security issues of regular play services. GrapheneOS sandboxes Google play services only have the privacy issues since just like with MicroG you still connect to Google = not actually avoiding Google. The issue with no notification without play services can be easily fixed by not using privacy hostile apps which only work with them.
    - bornfreddy 5mo ago
      You are missing the point. MicroG allows me to disable it when I want to, and push notifications still work when I (rarely) need to enable it. It's not about security, it is about privacy. While MicroG in theory could bypass NetGuard, I very much doubt that anyone would bother. My privacy is not that precious. But as I said, neither solution is great. How about sandboxing MicroG too?
      - akimbostrawman 5mo ago
        There is no privacy advantage by using MicroG compared to Google play services. You still connect to there service all the same giving privileged access to your device. There is a security AND privacy advantage by using sandboxed google play because they limit the kind of system access it has compared to MicroG/play services. Again the only advantage of MicroG compared to play services is that it's open source, you still have all the same privacy and security issues. Its already a lot of work to support the official play services and make them work in a sandbox, supporting another layer in between is more headache than its worth it or they have time/money for. Not to mention that sandboxed play services work with much more feature than MicroG such as android auto.