6 ms·

While I agree I do think there's some "aspiration of purity/correctness" in your approach that I've long let go of. I look at the royal mess that is HTML/CSS/J

by flossly 5mo ago

While I agree I do think there's some "aspiration of purity/correctness" in your approach that I've long let go of. I look at the royal mess that is HTML/CSS/JS as a necessary evil, required when we want to target browsers. To me it's "just the presentation layer". In my work I put a lot more emphasis on correctness in the db schema, or business logic in the backend. When it comes to the messy presentation layer I prefer to write a little as possible, while still ending up with somewhat maintainable code. And for this Tailwind fits the bill really well: LLMs write it very well, new devs understand it quick, and it's quite easy to read-back/adjust the code later. I 100% agree a Tailwind project is not the best way for a new dev to learn HTML/CSS. But then I prefer the new dev to focus on great db schemas, intuitive APIs, test-able biz logic, etc. Fiddling with the mess that's HTML/CSS is not the place where I consider human attention is best spent on (or where developers pick up skills to become much better developers).

TonyAlicea10 5mo ago
This isn't about "purity/correctness" it's about the real experience of a blind person. Accessibility means caring about the HTML. Your comment only mentions developers as the audience of HTML authoring, as opposed to users, which is a common attitude and the core problem with Tailwind.
- flossly 5mo ago
  I use Tailwind and have all kinds of "screen reader" directives in my templates. Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. It seems that Tailwind is now blamed for the mess that is HTML/CSS. Tailwind certainly allows for accessible designs; it may not be the ideal solution, sure, but what we aim for is "good enough".
  - reaperducer 5mo ago
    if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. Not good enough. You have to be accessible before it is needed in order to avoid legal liability. And how do you expect to get a blind user if they already cannot use your product? None of the doctors I build web sites for are currently blind. I know this because I talk to them regularly. But I still build the web sites for the future, when HR might hire a doctor or nurse or other person who is blind, or partially sighted, or has trouble with their muscles, or has difficulty distinguishing colors. Doing the right thing isn't that hard. Not doing it is just lazy.
    - flossly 5mo ago
      You call it lazy. I call it "focus" or avoiding pre-mature optimization. I find the "legal liability" claim hilarious... I do better than 95% of the web: as I said I HAVE some screen reader directives (just did not test it), and labels to make the app more accessible.
      - 48terry 5mo ago
        > You call it lazy. I call it "focus" Is this to be read that disabled people and their needs, or more directly from the replied-to comment, "doing the right thing", are not a focus of yours, flossly?
        LtWorf 5mo ago
        A former coworker of mine opened a meeting saying "we are so good, we care about accessibility". I had been complaining for months and finally a customer had said "we won't buy your product unless it complies to the law".
        DANmode 5mo ago
        Perhaps an accessible URL you’re associated with in your bio, to bolster your point?
      - reaperducer 5mo ago
        I find the "legal liability" claim hilarious You must have six million dollars laying around. Because that's the penalty Target paid for not having an accessible web site.
        _puk 5mo ago
        In 2008.. That wasn't even a regulatory penalty, but a class action by the National Federation of the blind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_the_Blind_v._Target_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_the_Bli...
    - 0x3f 5mo ago
  - embedding-shape 5mo ago
    > but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. Isn't this slightly backwards? Why would blind users sign up if the platform isn't usable for them in the first place? It has to be usable for them for them to become users :)
    - DANmode 5mo ago
      Notably, this is also how most businesses treat their sighted end-users…
  - throwaway24274 5mo ago
    It's not just blind people, but also people with reduced eyesight. As I'm getting older, I really appreciate good contrast and the possibility to zoom in without breaking the layout.
    - u_fucking_dork 5mo ago
      And how does tailwind or the structure of the underlying html of the page change or affect that?
      - extra88 5mo ago
        If Tailwind lends itself to using pixels instead of relative units for things that should be relative (like font-size, line-height, etc.), that's a problem. For those users, the HTML elements matter less unless they're savvy users who have custom user stylesheets to selectively adjust the appearance of content instead of changing everything on the page by zooming (e.g. make links, buttons, paragraphs, list items bigger and/or a different font or weight).
        stefan_lec 5mo ago
        This is not true. Tailwind defaults to rem as the underlying length unit for almost everything. You have to go to extra effort in most cases to use px.
        extra88 5mo ago
        Note the word "if" at the beginning.
    - 48terry 5mo ago
      People always forget they're one unlucky event from losing their sight, hearing, dexterity, or more. Hell, like you say, even aging's enough to do it. Accessibility suddenly becomes a lot more important when you're on the other side of the "not a priority" talk.
  - TonyAlicea10 5mo ago
    I mentioned blind but there’s lots of others. Folks sitting a desk whose eyesight are getting worse and are scared to say so for fear of losing their job, for example. This happens. Side note: if you aren’t deliberately choosing semantic elements and instead dropping aria attributes onto a bunch of divs this is an anti-pattern.
  - afavour 5mo ago
    > Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. How will you know if they are unable to use your site? They'll just leave.
  - bsoles 5mo ago
    > Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. I have heard "we don't have blind customers" argument many times before. Apart from ethical issues that this raises, ADA requirements, technically, don't care if you have blind users or not. Accessibility is still required...
    - shimman 5mo ago
      It's a great way to make an easy $10-30k as a law firm too when you sue them. Especially when you have definitive statements like "we purposely don't care about a11y until we get sued for it."
- gjsman-1000 5mo ago
  But why would I spend any time mastering this skill when we have AI now? Disability software that uses both the markup and the on-screen visual for decision making is likely imminent and would render most of this no longer necessary. Claude Cowork is already doing navigation and web browsing by screenshot showing this is possible.
  - hidelooktropic 5mo ago
    I guarantee you no one is working on this.
    - DANmode 5mo ago
      A larger, monied AI service will almost certainly trot something like this out as proof of public good in the next few years, even if it’s something they only notice they can do by accident, or in a down news cycle.
- zero_shift 5mo ago
  What does Tailwind have to do with accessibility? Most significant HTML markup is block level elements. The CSS is completely orthogonal. I feel like old-school frontend devs bring up accessibility as a kind of bogeyman. It reminds me of the myth that CSS style X or Y breaks accessibility "because screen readers expect semantic CSS classes". Zeldman (of A List Apart) promulgated that disinformation for years, until someone actually told him screen readers don't work that way. 90% of people who use a11y as a rhetorical cudgel have never actually used AT themselves.
  - TonyAlicea10 5mo ago
    It’s not Tailwind the tech, it’s the ergonomics of the tool. Tailwind’s design loop encourages “let me add a div so I have a place for my CSS class”. I’ve usability tested and performed user research with many users needing assistive tools and I’ve used them myself as part of design. Basic HTML authoring is good practice for many reasons.
    - gf000 5mo ago
      > let me add a div so I have a place for my CSS class As opposed to what exactly? HTML doesn't let you lay out stuff properly without at least some structural divs that have no meaning. If we have the proper aria properties for example, why does it really matter if I have extra divs (which is, again, irrespective of tailwind)
      - TonyAlicea10 5mo ago
        I can do a lot of layout without divs. Adding aria to divs is an anti-pattern and likely a worse experience than semantic elements. You might need some extra divs for layout sure. But I guarantee less than most people are using if they markup their content first. Remember divs mean nothing. So the opening example on the Tailwind website is the accessible equivalent of “blah blah blah”.
    - zero_shift 5mo ago
      Screen readers do not announce divs. They only read from the AOM. A <div> itself is treated as a generic, transparent box. It doesn't get keyboard focus, and it isn't added to the screen reader's elements list (like headings, links, or landmarks). > I’ve usability tested and performed user research with many users needing assistive tools and I’ve used them myself as part of design. Tell me how often screen readers announce divs that have no role attributes. You are continuing to spread misinformation
- The_President 5mo ago
  Knowing the DOM structure is properly engineered is the gateway to an entirely compliant end product out the gate. Leaves pros looking for the "difficultly level" on SEMRush after maxing it out.
ingridstanquini 5mo ago
[flagged]
paulhebert 5mo ago
You don’t think it’s valuable taking time to improve the interaction layer that all your users interact with your app through?
- DANmode 5mo ago
  Have you seen the frontend of most apps? =] The conversations here regarding UX? (Acting like it’s black magic, not basic empathy?) The exact same disconnection exists between dev and abled users.

by flossly 5mo ago

TonyAlicea10 5mo ago

This isn't about "purity/correctness" it's about the real experience of a blind person. Accessibility means caring about the HTML. Your comment only mentions developers as the audience of HTML authoring, as opposed to users, which is a common attitude and the core problem with Tailwind.

flossly 5mo ago
I use Tailwind and have all kinds of "screen reader" directives in my templates. Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. It seems that Tailwind is now blamed for the mess that is HTML/CSS. Tailwind certainly allows for accessible designs; it may not be the ideal solution, sure, but what we aim for is "good enough".
- reaperducer 5mo ago
  if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. Not good enough. You have to be accessible before it is needed in order to avoid legal liability. And how do you expect to get a blind user if they already cannot use your product? None of the doctors I build web sites for are currently blind. I know this because I talk to them regularly. But I still build the web sites for the future, when HR might hire a doctor or nurse or other person who is blind, or partially sighted, or has trouble with their muscles, or has difficulty distinguishing colors. Doing the right thing isn't that hard. Not doing it is just lazy.
  - flossly 5mo ago
    You call it lazy. I call it "focus" or avoiding pre-mature optimization. I find the "legal liability" claim hilarious... I do better than 95% of the web: as I said I HAVE some screen reader directives (just did not test it), and labels to make the app more accessible.
    - 48terry 5mo ago
      > You call it lazy. I call it "focus" Is this to be read that disabled people and their needs, or more directly from the replied-to comment, "doing the right thing", are not a focus of yours, flossly?
      - LtWorf 5mo ago
        A former coworker of mine opened a meeting saying "we are so good, we care about accessibility". I had been complaining for months and finally a customer had said "we won't buy your product unless it complies to the law".
      - DANmode 5mo ago
        Perhaps an accessible URL you’re associated with in your bio, to bolster your point?
    - reaperducer 5mo ago
      I find the "legal liability" claim hilarious You must have six million dollars laying around. Because that's the penalty Target paid for not having an accessible web site.
      - _puk 5mo ago
        In 2008.. That wasn't even a regulatory penalty, but a class action by the National Federation of the blind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_the_Blind_v._Target_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_the_Bli...
  - 0x3f 5mo ago
- embedding-shape 5mo ago
  > but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. Isn't this slightly backwards? Why would blind users sign up if the platform isn't usable for them in the first place? It has to be usable for them for them to become users :)
  - DANmode 5mo ago
    Notably, this is also how most businesses treat their sighted end-users…
- throwaway24274 5mo ago
  It's not just blind people, but also people with reduced eyesight. As I'm getting older, I really appreciate good contrast and the possibility to zoom in without breaking the layout.
  - u_fucking_dork 5mo ago
    And how does tailwind or the structure of the underlying html of the page change or affect that?
    - extra88 5mo ago
      If Tailwind lends itself to using pixels instead of relative units for things that should be relative (like font-size, line-height, etc.), that's a problem. For those users, the HTML elements matter less unless they're savvy users who have custom user stylesheets to selectively adjust the appearance of content instead of changing everything on the page by zooming (e.g. make links, buttons, paragraphs, list items bigger and/or a different font or weight).
      - stefan_lec 5mo ago
        This is not true. Tailwind defaults to rem as the underlying length unit for almost everything. You have to go to extra effort in most cases to use px.
        extra88 5mo ago
        Note the word "if" at the beginning.
  - 48terry 5mo ago
    People always forget they're one unlucky event from losing their sight, hearing, dexterity, or more. Hell, like you say, even aging's enough to do it. Accessibility suddenly becomes a lot more important when you're on the other side of the "not a priority" talk.
- TonyAlicea10 5mo ago
  I mentioned blind but there’s lots of others. Folks sitting a desk whose eyesight are getting worse and are scared to say so for fear of losing their job, for example. This happens. Side note: if you aren’t deliberately choosing semantic elements and instead dropping aria attributes onto a bunch of divs this is an anti-pattern.
- afavour 5mo ago
  > Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. How will you know if they are unable to use your site? They'll just leave.
- bsoles 5mo ago
  > Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. I have heard "we don't have blind customers" argument many times before. Apart from ethical issues that this raises, ADA requirements, technically, don't care if you have blind users or not. Accessibility is still required...
  - shimman 5mo ago
    It's a great way to make an easy $10-30k as a law firm too when you sue them. Especially when you have definitive statements like "we purposely don't care about a11y until we get sued for it."
gjsman-1000 5mo ago
But why would I spend any time mastering this skill when we have AI now? Disability software that uses both the markup and the on-screen visual for decision making is likely imminent and would render most of this no longer necessary. Claude Cowork is already doing navigation and web browsing by screenshot showing this is possible.
- hidelooktropic 5mo ago
  I guarantee you no one is working on this.
  - DANmode 5mo ago
    A larger, monied AI service will almost certainly trot something like this out as proof of public good in the next few years, even if it’s something they only notice they can do by accident, or in a down news cycle.
zero_shift 5mo ago
What does Tailwind have to do with accessibility? Most significant HTML markup is block level elements. The CSS is completely orthogonal. I feel like old-school frontend devs bring up accessibility as a kind of bogeyman. It reminds me of the myth that CSS style X or Y breaks accessibility "because screen readers expect semantic CSS classes". Zeldman (of A List Apart) promulgated that disinformation for years, until someone actually told him screen readers don't work that way. 90% of people who use a11y as a rhetorical cudgel have never actually used AT themselves.
- TonyAlicea10 5mo ago
  It’s not Tailwind the tech, it’s the ergonomics of the tool. Tailwind’s design loop encourages “let me add a div so I have a place for my CSS class”. I’ve usability tested and performed user research with many users needing assistive tools and I’ve used them myself as part of design. Basic HTML authoring is good practice for many reasons.
  - gf000 5mo ago
    > let me add a div so I have a place for my CSS class As opposed to what exactly? HTML doesn't let you lay out stuff properly without at least some structural divs that have no meaning. If we have the proper aria properties for example, why does it really matter if I have extra divs (which is, again, irrespective of tailwind)
    - TonyAlicea10 5mo ago
      I can do a lot of layout without divs. Adding aria to divs is an anti-pattern and likely a worse experience than semantic elements. You might need some extra divs for layout sure. But I guarantee less than most people are using if they markup their content first. Remember divs mean nothing. So the opening example on the Tailwind website is the accessible equivalent of “blah blah blah”.
  - zero_shift 5mo ago
    Screen readers do not announce divs. They only read from the AOM. A <div> itself is treated as a generic, transparent box. It doesn't get keyboard focus, and it isn't added to the screen reader's elements list (like headings, links, or landmarks). > I’ve usability tested and performed user research with many users needing assistive tools and I’ve used them myself as part of design. Tell me how often screen readers announce divs that have no role attributes. You are continuing to spread misinformation
The_President 5mo ago
Knowing the DOM structure is properly engineered is the gateway to an entirely compliant end product out the gate. Leaves pros looking for the "difficultly level" on SEMRush after maxing it out.

ingridstanquini 5mo ago

[flagged]

paulhebert 5mo ago

You don’t think it’s valuable taking time to improve the interaction layer that all your users interact with your app through?

DANmode 5mo ago
Have you seen the frontend of most apps? =] The conversations here regarding UX? (Acting like it’s black magic, not basic empathy?) The exact same disconnection exists between dev and abled users.