3 ms·

I find this amusing: I'm from Poland, where after the VAT tax was introduced in the 1990s, there were famous "VAT carousel" crimes, with people ending up in pri

by jwr 5mo ago

I find this amusing: I'm from Poland, where after the VAT tax was introduced in the 1990s, there were famous "VAT carousel" crimes, with people ending up in prison. The basic idea was similar, except you also collected VAT refunds from the state. If you search for "vat carousel" today, it seems this is still a thing.

debarshri 5mo ago
VAT carousel is fraud. This is pre-legal.
gaiagraphia 5mo ago
VAT is a joke of a tax. It's quite incredible why the government concerns itself with chasing people's accounts around. What a waste. If something can't be monitored with minimal effort, it only serves to enrich the legal/accountancy/hr/admin priest caste. The amount of labour wasted on moving numbers around numbers is staggering. edit: Between the government and businesses, VAT costs 5% in admin fees to raise. In a modern world where most transactions are digital, is this a great use of resources?
- ww520 5mo ago
  VAT is a regressive tax. It hits everyone along the way, rich or poor. It hits the poor especially hard proportionally.
  - Arodex 5mo ago
    VAT is a progressive tax. https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressive/ https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressi...
- whynotmaybe 5mo ago
  Source for the "5%"?
- derriz 5mo ago
  VAT is trivial for businesses to deal with. You add x% onto every invoice you issue. The VAT due to be paid to the government is a simple sum of the amounts distinctly shown on each invoice you issue minus the sum of the VAT amounts on invoices you’ve paid. Income/employment taxes, corporate tax, import taxes, etc are orders of magnitudes more complex, dynamic and subject to legal interpretation. I was a small business owner for a while years ago and did the VAT myself. But there was no way I would even attempt employment or corporation taxes - covered by endless legislation and changing every year - that was a job for the accountant.
- stephen_cagle 5mo ago
  I've multiple times done a minor dive into why a VAT tax is seen as a reasonable tax? It... seems as regressive as a sales tax with even more layers of intervention? I've always eventually lost interest in trying to make sense of it, but they sure seem popular in Europe so there must be something to them? My current belief is that there should really just be a wealth tax on assets (Federal) and a land value tax on land (States); nothing else.
  - shimman 5mo ago
    Good thing we don't cater society to your beliefs, else it would lead to collapse of the welfare state and cause the needless deaths of tens of millions of Americans.
  - Arodex 5mo ago
    It is a progressive tax. It is purely neutral when considered as a sales tax (same percentage, whether you buy a cheap loaf of bread or a luxury gizmo), regressive as a share of income when you consider the poor expend more of their revenue into daily expenditures (whereas the rich put a greater proportion into savings), but back to neutral when you consider savings are meant to be used one day anyway, and slightly progressive in countries where VAT is lower for food and other vital daily expenditures. https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressive/ https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressi...
    - stephen_cagle 5mo ago
      I feel like I am saying regressive in the sense that it effects the poor more than the rich, full stop. Being neutral relative to a sales tax is a confusing starting point. I consider a sales tax to be a truly bad tax, as it disproportionately effects the poor.
  - Flundstrom2 5mo ago
    There used to be a wealth tax and land value tax in Sweden (aka world champion of taxation), but they were abolished simply because being taxed yearly on an fixed asset doesn't mean you have the liquidity to pay the taxes from your income. They had also caused the some of the wealthiest people in the UK to be Swedes, IKEA being Swiss and Dutch, and a lot of other movements of capital to other countries. All in all, wealth and value tax are a big loss of income for the government.
econ 5mo ago
I first hear about this from a guy running a warehouse. He noticed the same boxes commining in again and again.

by jwr 5mo ago

debarshri 5mo ago

VAT carousel is fraud. This is pre-legal.

gaiagraphia 5mo ago

VAT is a joke of a tax. It's quite incredible why the government concerns itself with chasing people's accounts around. What a waste. If something can't be monitored with minimal effort, it only serves to enrich the legal/accountancy/hr/admin priest caste. The amount of labour wasted on moving numbers around numbers is staggering. edit: Between the government and businesses, VAT costs 5% in admin fees to raise. In a modern world where most transactions are digital, is this a great use of resources?

ww520 5mo ago
VAT is a regressive tax. It hits everyone along the way, rich or poor. It hits the poor especially hard proportionally.
- Arodex 5mo ago
  VAT is a progressive tax. https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressive/ https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressi...
whynotmaybe 5mo ago
Source for the "5%"?
derriz 5mo ago
VAT is trivial for businesses to deal with. You add x% onto every invoice you issue. The VAT due to be paid to the government is a simple sum of the amounts distinctly shown on each invoice you issue minus the sum of the VAT amounts on invoices you’ve paid. Income/employment taxes, corporate tax, import taxes, etc are orders of magnitudes more complex, dynamic and subject to legal interpretation. I was a small business owner for a while years ago and did the VAT myself. But there was no way I would even attempt employment or corporation taxes - covered by endless legislation and changing every year - that was a job for the accountant.
stephen_cagle 5mo ago
I've multiple times done a minor dive into why a VAT tax is seen as a reasonable tax? It... seems as regressive as a sales tax with even more layers of intervention? I've always eventually lost interest in trying to make sense of it, but they sure seem popular in Europe so there must be something to them? My current belief is that there should really just be a wealth tax on assets (Federal) and a land value tax on land (States); nothing else.
- shimman 5mo ago
  Good thing we don't cater society to your beliefs, else it would lead to collapse of the welfare state and cause the needless deaths of tens of millions of Americans.
- Arodex 5mo ago
  It is a progressive tax. It is purely neutral when considered as a sales tax (same percentage, whether you buy a cheap loaf of bread or a luxury gizmo), regressive as a share of income when you consider the poor expend more of their revenue into daily expenditures (whereas the rich put a greater proportion into savings), but back to neutral when you consider savings are meant to be used one day anyway, and slightly progressive in countries where VAT is lower for food and other vital daily expenditures. https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressive/ https://taxfoundation.org/blog/value-added-tax-vat-progressi...
  - stephen_cagle 5mo ago
    I feel like I am saying regressive in the sense that it effects the poor more than the rich, full stop. Being neutral relative to a sales tax is a confusing starting point. I consider a sales tax to be a truly bad tax, as it disproportionately effects the poor.
- Flundstrom2 5mo ago
  There used to be a wealth tax and land value tax in Sweden (aka world champion of taxation), but they were abolished simply because being taxed yearly on an fixed asset doesn't mean you have the liquidity to pay the taxes from your income. They had also caused the some of the wealthiest people in the UK to be Swedes, IKEA being Swiss and Dutch, and a lot of other movements of capital to other countries. All in all, wealth and value tax are a big loss of income for the government.

econ 5mo ago

I first hear about this from a guy running a warehouse. He noticed the same boxes commining in again and again.