3 ms·

> a free, thoughtful, well-rounded human being What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that? Is there any institution today that teache

by rayiner 6mo ago

> a free, thoughtful, well-rounded human being What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that? Is there any institution today that teaches you to be a “well-rounded human being?” Do students graduate being able to hunt for food, grow crops, or build a house? There might be great value in whatever type of “education” you’re talking about. But “education” as a public, taxpayer supported activity is about the economy.

Cerium 6mo ago
The main focus of education as a taxpayer supported activity is about the perpetuation of the state. The fact that a healthy state relies on a healthy economy is a constraint that helps shape the aims of public education. Other constraints are about culture, values, and understanding the government to the degree that the government can count on having a future generation of legislature. One of my favorites on this topic, the 1963 "A Talk to Teachers", by James Baldwin. https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/baldwin-talk-to-teachers/ https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/baldwin-talk-to-teac...
- rayiner 6mo ago
  Whose culture, whose values, and whose understanding of the government? You’re describing the function of public education in a place like China, or the U.S. before the 1960s. Yeah, the Puritans invented public schools to make sure students learned the bible. But it’s not 1635 anymore. In a multicultural society, school only has an economic function.
  - hollerith 6mo ago
    I would have guessed that a very large fraction of the US's decisionmakers still want education to prepare young people for citizenship, not just labor-force participation.
    - rayiner 6mo ago
      “Citizenship” is an empty label that we use out of habit. It’s not attached to any substantive concepts that schools can meaningfully socialize into children. Where “citizenship” is a paper label and defined mainly in terms of economic relations and pop culture references, what “preparation” is there for schools to do? I’m reminded of Joe Biden delivering a word salad response to a similar question: https://www.c-span.org/clip/white-house-event/user-clip-biden-describes-america-with-one-word/5010667 https://www.c-span.org/clip/white-house-event/user-clip-bide.... This isn’t a criticism of Biden. There’s not a meaningful answer.
      - hollerith 6mo ago
        If instead of "prepare young people for citizenship", I had written, "teach young people things useful for maintaining and improving their community and their country", would your reply be essentially the same?
kuerbel 6mo ago
[dead]
maplethorpe 6mo ago
Think about it on a micro level. Do you work better when your coworkers are thoughtful, or when they're thoughtless? Now multiply that by a billion, and that's why it's good for the economy.
- bluefirebrand 6mo ago
  All of my thoughtless coworkers are still university educated though My guess is thoughtfulness is either something you're born with, or it's something you learn much younger than university
  - shermantanktop 6mo ago
    That’s the other function of the university system, and perhaps the primary one - the admissions system designates incoming students as talented, bright, etc. Whatever happens in class is a secondary matter. It’s imperfect of course. But “we produce great graduates” should mostly be understood as “we pick great incoming students.”
- MyHonestOpinon 6mo ago
  Beautifully said. Well rounded, thoughtful people improve life for all of us. Of course, we also need practical skills to make a living. But we can have both, they are not mutually exclusive.
- kansface 6mo ago
  The expected a priori utility of any social intervention is strictly negative… even if “more thoughtful” does check out in reality for higher ed, $700 billion and 15million man years yearly is rather expensive.
- rayiner 6mo ago
  What does “thoughtful” mean? If you think that includes telling flattering lies—“everyone is beautiful, everyone is smart”—then I would say that makes things a lot less efficient. It’s much more valuable to have coworkers who are brutally honest and realistic.
deltarholamda 6mo ago
>But “education” as a public, taxpayer supported activity is about the economy It sounds harsh and maybe a bit gauche, but it's true. A literate and numerate citizenry helps the nation advance. That's the selling point for widespread public education. Airy ideals sound great, but that's also how ideology slides into the public school.
toasty228 6mo ago
> What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that? Yeah why would you want your neighbours to be smart and well rounded when they can be dumb and obedient corporate drones instead. We're already seeing the effect of this "nothing is useful unless it makes ME money" mentality, I personally don't want more of it > What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that? Let's close social security, healthcare, pensions, it's expensive and a net negative to the economy. All we need is AI and defense actually!
- rayiner 6mo ago
  > smart and well rounded Smart is something you’re born with, and “well rounded” is a meaningful nonce phrase.
jubilanti 6mo ago
Society has an interest in its citizens not being single minded sociopathic worker drones. A democracy especially functions best when its citizens know history, philosophy, literature, art... The kinds of things that help us understand and make sense of each other.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]

by rayiner 6mo ago

Cerium 6mo ago

The main focus of education as a taxpayer supported activity is about the perpetuation of the state. The fact that a healthy state relies on a healthy economy is a constraint that helps shape the aims of public education. Other constraints are about culture, values, and understanding the government to the degree that the government can count on having a future generation of legislature. One of my favorites on this topic, the 1963 "A Talk to Teachers", by James Baldwin. https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/baldwin-talk-to-teachers/ https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/baldwin-talk-to-teac...

rayiner 6mo ago
Whose culture, whose values, and whose understanding of the government? You’re describing the function of public education in a place like China, or the U.S. before the 1960s. Yeah, the Puritans invented public schools to make sure students learned the bible. But it’s not 1635 anymore. In a multicultural society, school only has an economic function.
- hollerith 6mo ago
  I would have guessed that a very large fraction of the US's decisionmakers still want education to prepare young people for citizenship, not just labor-force participation.
  - rayiner 6mo ago
    “Citizenship” is an empty label that we use out of habit. It’s not attached to any substantive concepts that schools can meaningfully socialize into children. Where “citizenship” is a paper label and defined mainly in terms of economic relations and pop culture references, what “preparation” is there for schools to do? I’m reminded of Joe Biden delivering a word salad response to a similar question: https://www.c-span.org/clip/white-house-event/user-clip-biden-describes-america-with-one-word/5010667 https://www.c-span.org/clip/white-house-event/user-clip-bide.... This isn’t a criticism of Biden. There’s not a meaningful answer.
    - hollerith 6mo ago
      If instead of "prepare young people for citizenship", I had written, "teach young people things useful for maintaining and improving their community and their country", would your reply be essentially the same?

kuerbel 6mo ago

[dead]

maplethorpe 6mo ago

Think about it on a micro level. Do you work better when your coworkers are thoughtful, or when they're thoughtless? Now multiply that by a billion, and that's why it's good for the economy.

bluefirebrand 6mo ago
All of my thoughtless coworkers are still university educated though My guess is thoughtfulness is either something you're born with, or it's something you learn much younger than university
- shermantanktop 6mo ago
  That’s the other function of the university system, and perhaps the primary one - the admissions system designates incoming students as talented, bright, etc. Whatever happens in class is a secondary matter. It’s imperfect of course. But “we produce great graduates” should mostly be understood as “we pick great incoming students.”
MyHonestOpinon 6mo ago
Beautifully said. Well rounded, thoughtful people improve life for all of us. Of course, we also need practical skills to make a living. But we can have both, they are not mutually exclusive.
kansface 6mo ago
The expected a priori utility of any social intervention is strictly negative… even if “more thoughtful” does check out in reality for higher ed, $700 billion and 15million man years yearly is rather expensive.
rayiner 6mo ago
What does “thoughtful” mean? If you think that includes telling flattering lies—“everyone is beautiful, everyone is smart”—then I would say that makes things a lot less efficient. It’s much more valuable to have coworkers who are brutally honest and realistic.

deltarholamda 6mo ago

>But “education” as a public, taxpayer supported activity is about the economy It sounds harsh and maybe a bit gauche, but it's true. A literate and numerate citizenry helps the nation advance. That's the selling point for widespread public education. Airy ideals sound great, but that's also how ideology slides into the public school.

toasty228 6mo ago

> What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that? Yeah why would you want your neighbours to be smart and well rounded when they can be dumb and obedient corporate drones instead. We're already seeing the effect of this "nothing is useful unless it makes ME money" mentality, I personally don't want more of it > What do these words even mean, and why should taxpayers pay for that? Let's close social security, healthcare, pensions, it's expensive and a net negative to the economy. All we need is AI and defense actually!

rayiner 6mo ago
> smart and well rounded Smart is something you’re born with, and “well rounded” is a meaningful nonce phrase.

jubilanti 6mo ago

Society has an interest in its citizens not being single minded sociopathic worker drones. A democracy especially functions best when its citizens know history, philosophy, literature, art... The kinds of things that help us understand and make sense of each other.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]