4 ms·

The reason for Palantir at the NHS, the problem they're trying to solve is this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1388245/uk-sick-leave-fi https://www.stati

by spwa4 6mo ago

The reason for Palantir at the NHS, the problem they're trying to solve is this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1388245/uk-sick-leave-fi https://www.statista.com/statistics/1388245/uk-sick-leave-fi... Now, I get it. The UK is not exactly providing good jobs for a lot of people, so of course we're seeing this. But, getting a mental health diagnosis, be long-term-sick and avoiding unemployment while both getting paid by an employer and getting unfair advantages out of the public health system ... In the UK, long term sick leave with a mental health diagnosis is a way to be unemployed (ie. not working) but not have the disadvantages of that. There's the money difference: 530 pounds per month for sick leave, 338 or 425 pounds per month for unemployment. On long-term sick leave you get all advantages job seekers get (ie. "Universal Credit"), PLUS others (support for not being able to work, ESA, and support for extra living expenses due to long-term sickness, PIP). So if you don't want to work, long-term sick leave has many advantages (you can even put that you're working on your CV), plus it's a big cost to employers. You don't have to look for work in long-term sick leave. In fact, nothing is expected at all (other than medical evidence). 2.8 million people are long-term ill, not participating in the workforce, not being economically productive at all, at least half due to being diagnosed with mental illness. The issue with this is that this is happening with full support of government employees, and even the courts cooperate to a lesser extent. What the government is trying to do, in other words, is trying to kick people off, uh, let's say "mental disability", force them to work. And they need to do this without relying on government workers, because they often side with the people on sick leave. Hence, Palantir. Being hated is a feature here, not a bug.

regularfry 6mo ago
> The issue with this is that this is happening with full support of government employees, and even the courts cooperate to a lesser extent. Why is that an issue? The simplest explanation is that the underlying rate of mental illness is inconveniently high. Which would tally with, as you say: > In fact, nothing is expected at all (other than medical evidence). Also I would take a look at the date when the upcurve starts on that chart and ask myself: was there some sort of mass disabling event that happened about then? Might that be contributing?
- 9x39 6mo ago
  > Why is that an issue? What’s the counterweight to keep the system in check and from growing out of control? If the only message is yes, it sets up a positive feedback loop. Looking back and guessing whether Covid justifies it is post hoc rationalization. It says nothing about the validity of individual claims. Fraud schemes in the same timeframe could benefit just as well.
  - spwa4 6mo ago
    Plus it just isn't fair. You're making other people work for you without anything in return.
    - regularfry 6mo ago
      The alternative is a society that says "work or starve". I don't live in that society and I don't want to.
      - spwa4 6mo ago
        Nobody starves in western societies.
        alt227 6mo ago
        You forgot the /s
  - regularfry 6mo ago
    > What’s the counterweight to keep the system in check and from growing out of control? If the only message is yes, it sets up a positive feedback loop. Nice try, but that's begging the question. Why is it a problem for the government employees to do their jobs and for the courts to enforce the law? > Looking back and guessing whether Covid justifies it is post hoc rationalization. So is making an accusation of rampant fraud that just happened to coincide with a badly-contained pandemic. Occam's Razor makes increased sickness the null hypothesis. It's on you to do more than raise vague insinuations if you want to show the main weight of the problem here is anything other than that, with the usual derisory level of fraud at the edges as a rounding error. > It says nothing about the validity of individual claims. Let me introduce you to a concept you may find useful: go and read up on this thing called "statistics", you might find it helps. > Fraud schemes in the same timeframe could benefit just as well And? Show they're the problem. Show them increasing. Show why they started increasing exactly then.
basket_horse 6mo ago
Actually this is a good read on the problem they are trying to solve https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Understanding-the-problems-facing-NHS-data https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Und...
- spwa4 6mo ago
  Yeah, I bet this is involved in the problem. This is describing the NHS as essentially nonfunctional, hospitals have their own IT and attempts to migrate to NHS infrastructure have largely failed. No doubt that makes sure people having long-term illnesses will spend most of the time being long-term ill waiting in NHS lines. Of course, the complaint from economists is long-term sick people being occupied 12+ months getting better is worsening at about 7% per year, over 40% in the 2020-2026 period ( ... and in the supposed big success cases Palantir Foundry brings 28% improvement. Also: collecting the parts and posting here. https://archive.ph/Hg7xN https://archive.ph/Hg7xN https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Understanding-the-problems-facing-NHS-data https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Und... https://archive.ph/IE9oi https://archive.ph/IE9oi https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-2-Delivering-on-the-NHS-vision-for-data https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-2-Del... https://archive.ph/zp5cU https://archive.ph/zp5cU https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-3-The-data-architecture-that-makes-it-work https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-3-The... The TLDR: because the NHS leadership has systematically refused to upgrade their IT[1], does not actually make the data they get available, their IT is considered unhelpful by hospitals and clinicians which leads to "gaps in the data" [2], and because NHS management will not either hire people to do analyses and will not learn/understand things like SQL to do it themselves, they cannot act on the data. SO ... what Palantir brings is: 1) a quick AI-driven way to make apps to implement particular workflows. AI writes apps instead of "shadow IT". Just AI written applications shared by frontline staff on a "solution exchange". 2) a data ingestion process that makes up whatever data is missing (apparently this is called "ontology": the AI model fills missing data in with what it thinks is happening. No mention of hallucination and it's effects). Somehow Palantir does this without any kind of change in IT at the edge. Ie. hospitals, mental health wards, ... keep all their existing IT (he mentions this means no investment is needed in it at all) 3) a way for NHS management to "cooperate", which appears to mean to query this data that does not involve any kind of actually knowing what they're doing or hiring analysts. Which apparently leads to delays (no doubt because analysts ask for clarification which management doesn't know or care about). "Plain-English analytics". Oh and in case you're wondering: he descirbes it as a POSITIVE that it is fast but inaccurate. Apparently "somehow" a frustrating part of this is that "data extraction is frustrating" and it clashes with traditional NHS data engineering practices (translation: existing NHS analysts say that the data Palantir produces is bullshit) It ends on a "positive" note: no worries, it'll be pushed through past these people calling bullshit. Just makes things harder and slower. No explanation as to how this statement vibes with him leaving. [1] They still use access databases running on single machines NOT even VMs (He comments many of those systems cost hundreds of thousands of pounds "before counting the staff needed to run them". Note that this is supposedly a source of savings of going with Palantir, but also they won't be replaced, because that costs too much ...) [2] ie. you go to another hospital, even with a referral, often they don't know about that referral. This has caused staff at hospitals to bypass the NHS organization in many cases, and even the NHS itself acknowledges that bypassing the NHS administration is a necessity.

by spwa4 6mo ago

regularfry 6mo ago

> The issue with this is that this is happening with full support of government employees, and even the courts cooperate to a lesser extent. Why is that an issue? The simplest explanation is that the underlying rate of mental illness is inconveniently high. Which would tally with, as you say: > In fact, nothing is expected at all (other than medical evidence). Also I would take a look at the date when the upcurve starts on that chart and ask myself: was there some sort of mass disabling event that happened about then? Might that be contributing?

9x39 6mo ago
> Why is that an issue? What’s the counterweight to keep the system in check and from growing out of control? If the only message is yes, it sets up a positive feedback loop. Looking back and guessing whether Covid justifies it is post hoc rationalization. It says nothing about the validity of individual claims. Fraud schemes in the same timeframe could benefit just as well.
- spwa4 6mo ago
  Plus it just isn't fair. You're making other people work for you without anything in return.
  - regularfry 6mo ago
    The alternative is a society that says "work or starve". I don't live in that society and I don't want to.
    - spwa4 6mo ago
      Nobody starves in western societies.
      - alt227 6mo ago
        You forgot the /s
- regularfry 6mo ago
  > What’s the counterweight to keep the system in check and from growing out of control? If the only message is yes, it sets up a positive feedback loop. Nice try, but that's begging the question. Why is it a problem for the government employees to do their jobs and for the courts to enforce the law? > Looking back and guessing whether Covid justifies it is post hoc rationalization. So is making an accusation of rampant fraud that just happened to coincide with a badly-contained pandemic. Occam's Razor makes increased sickness the null hypothesis. It's on you to do more than raise vague insinuations if you want to show the main weight of the problem here is anything other than that, with the usual derisory level of fraud at the edges as a rounding error. > It says nothing about the validity of individual claims. Let me introduce you to a concept you may find useful: go and read up on this thing called "statistics", you might find it helps. > Fraud schemes in the same timeframe could benefit just as well And? Show they're the problem. Show them increasing. Show why they started increasing exactly then.

basket_horse 6mo ago

Actually this is a good read on the problem they are trying to solve https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Understanding-the-problems-facing-NHS-data https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Und...

spwa4 6mo ago
Yeah, I bet this is involved in the problem. This is describing the NHS as essentially nonfunctional, hospitals have their own IT and attempts to migrate to NHS infrastructure have largely failed. No doubt that makes sure people having long-term illnesses will spend most of the time being long-term ill waiting in NHS lines. Of course, the complaint from economists is long-term sick people being occupied 12+ months getting better is worsening at about 7% per year, over 40% in the 2020-2026 period ( ... and in the supposed big success cases Palantir Foundry brings 28% improvement. Also: collecting the parts and posting here. https://archive.ph/Hg7xN https://archive.ph/Hg7xN https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Understanding-the-problems-facing-NHS-data https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Und... https://archive.ph/IE9oi https://archive.ph/IE9oi https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-2-Delivering-on-the-NHS-vision-for-data https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-2-Del... https://archive.ph/zp5cU https://archive.ph/zp5cU https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-3-The-data-architecture-that-makes-it-work https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-3-The... The TLDR: because the NHS leadership has systematically refused to upgrade their IT[1], does not actually make the data they get available, their IT is considered unhelpful by hospitals and clinicians which leads to "gaps in the data" [2], and because NHS management will not either hire people to do analyses and will not learn/understand things like SQL to do it themselves, they cannot act on the data. SO ... what Palantir brings is: 1) a quick AI-driven way to make apps to implement particular workflows. AI writes apps instead of "shadow IT". Just AI written applications shared by frontline staff on a "solution exchange". 2) a data ingestion process that makes up whatever data is missing (apparently this is called "ontology": the AI model fills missing data in with what it thinks is happening. No mention of hallucination and it's effects). Somehow Palantir does this without any kind of change in IT at the edge. Ie. hospitals, mental health wards, ... keep all their existing IT (he mentions this means no investment is needed in it at all) 3) a way for NHS management to "cooperate", which appears to mean to query this data that does not involve any kind of actually knowing what they're doing or hiring analysts. Which apparently leads to delays (no doubt because analysts ask for clarification which management doesn't know or care about). "Plain-English analytics". Oh and in case you're wondering: he descirbes it as a POSITIVE that it is fast but inaccurate. Apparently "somehow" a frustrating part of this is that "data extraction is frustrating" and it clashes with traditional NHS data engineering practices (translation: existing NHS analysts say that the data Palantir produces is bullshit) It ends on a "positive" note: no worries, it'll be pushed through past these people calling bullshit. Just makes things harder and slower. No explanation as to how this statement vibes with him leaving. [1] They still use access databases running on single machines NOT even VMs (He comments many of those systems cost hundreds of thousands of pounds "before counting the staff needed to run them". Note that this is supposedly a source of savings of going with Palantir, but also they won't be replaced, because that costs too much ...) [2] ie. you go to another hospital, even with a referral, often they don't know about that referral. This has caused staff at hospitals to bypass the NHS organization in many cases, and even the NHS itself acknowledges that bypassing the NHS administration is a necessity.