5 ms·

Needless to say, cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features without an explicit opt-in thanks to sensible data protection legislation; including t

by GJim 5mo ago

Needless to say, cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features without an explicit opt-in thanks to sensible data protection legislation; including the GDPR. The FUD spouted on here by the scummy adtech industry about legislation to protect YOUR privacy is mind boggling. These are the people doing the digital equivalent of sniffing your underwear to work out what you had for breakfast. (And before somebody shouts FUD about the UK/EU vehicle eCall 112 system, that certainly doesn't track you or seek to invade your privacy on any level!)

golem14 5mo ago
I'm tempted to say "oh you sweet summer child", because it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true (in the sense that the small print in rental cars and sales contracts doesn't allow it, ot it's done by law enforcement agencies surrepticiously). But maybe it IS true. I know it's legally mandated.
- GJim 5mo ago
  > it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? Really? It's genuinely amazing how many Americans on here (a tech news site!) are unaware of data privacy law and expectations outside their homeland.
  - jaapz 5mo ago
    > So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? They were also in mass breach of vehicle emission laws. The fact that there was some backlash (although people didn't really stop buying VAG cars), people got prosecuted, the company got fined, didn't really change their decisions while they were pumping out fraudulent cars. Yes, we should have privacy laws like this in the EU, this is a good thing! But thinking that, when these laws are in place, all companies magically will follow them is naive. To them it's still a cost/benefit analysis, and history has shown short term benefit trumps many other things for these companies.
    - GJim 5mo ago
      ONE company did it (not a mass of them), resulting in massive fines and prosecutions; they certainly aren't going to do it again! I'd also suggest the backlash from breaches in data privacy would be much larger than from fiddling emissions tests (as evil as the latter was, it actually saved many customers money on a (more polluting) car with higher performance).
      - lucianbr 5mo ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Other_manufacturers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#O... > After news broke out of Volkswagen cheating on diesel emissions, multiple other vehicle manufacturers got caught falsifying emissions data, as well as exceeding legal emission limits. This uncovered a greater industry-wide issue that goes far beyond only Volkswagen Group.
    - vladms 5mo ago
      > To them it's still a cost/benefit analysis, and history has shown short term benefit trumps many other things for these companies. Doesn't that depend on the company though? Not all companies are focused in the same amount on short vs long term benefits. There are costs of not following the regulation (example, did not check in detail: https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/) and I do not hear (media, social network, etc.) anybody complaining about fines so I think it will just continue ad hopefully will change their opinion at some point.
  - golem14 5mo ago
    I really do think there is a good chance that say MI5 or the BND or the DGSE flagrantly ignore the law to catch non-national evildoers, just as much as in the US. The temptation to do this 'in the name of security' is very high. Of course, I can't or won't prove it. And yes, I am _intimately_ familiar with the GDPR and other laws and regulations. The US also had (has) wiretapping laws that would have prevented snooping on Americans. I'm not claiming the EU is no better than the US, it clearly has better intentions. But fundamentally, I think the EU will end up in the same place as the US sooner or later, simply because the same forces are at play: desire for security >> desire for privacy for most people if the rubber hits the road. Here's some fun read for those who seek more info: https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-privacy-watchdog-sidelined-intel-service-bnd-bulk-up/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-privacy-watchdog-sid... https://www.bnd.bund.de/EN/Service/PrivacyPolicy/privacypolicy_node.html https://www.bnd.bund.de/EN/Service/PrivacyPolicy/privacypoli... https://www.lexxion.eu/?newsletters_method=newsletter&id=477 https://www.lexxion.eu/?newsletters_method=newsletter&id=477
  - sailfast 5mo ago
    Yes. Or, more succinctly - they are likely following the law but have figured out a way to avoid it as written using consumer opt-in and dark patterns. You call it FUD, but this is hacker news and with overwhelming incentives it is not unreasonable to ask for verification that data isn’t being exfiltrated.
M95D 5mo ago
> (And before somebody shouts FUD about the UK/EU vehicle eCall 112 system, that certainly doesn't track you or seek to invade your privacy on any level!) How do you know? BTW, the checking all the opt-ins is usually the first thing the sales person does when selling a new car.
- GJim 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - DaSHacka 5mo ago
    Because no company has ever broken the law before
    - GJim 5mo ago
      What a ridiculous argument! So what is the point in having laws then? No doubt you believe any adtech request for personal data should be met by the subject promptly bending over and grabbing their ankles with both hands?
      - abc123abc123 5mo ago
        Laws exist to keep the common man in check, and to punish government organizations and corporations _if_ they get caught. The original purpose is to keep voters meek and to stop them from overthrowing the politicians. Laws have very little to do with scaring corporations and nations.
      - M95D 5mo ago
        I am absolutely sure (even though I can't give a link as proof) that all telephony operators everywhere have to provide a backdoor for the "authorities" in order to obtain their licence. So, yes, a telecom provider will be bending over immediately, or risk losing their licence. I also suspect that in many cases, the operator won't even be informed about the tracking because the gov agencies already have direct access to all the data.
monegator 5mo ago
>cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features If you say so. Maybe if you buy the car with cash, but if you finance it you are leasing from a company that has definetly accepted all the terms and conditions to capture and sell all the telemetry to various parties >without an explicit opt-in check out at a modern volvo/audi/whatever, they are making it so difficult to say no every single time the screen is powered on
- GJim 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - jona-f 5mo ago
    > It is illegal in the UK/EU to make provision of a service dependent on allowing your personal data to be sold to third parties. Nobody seems to care and this isn't enforced at all. It is very hard to live in Germany without having a google account. Many services are only offered via phone-app that is only available through play-store. I'd have to use apks from questionable, untrusted third-party websites. Good luck finding an employer that doesn't require you to have a microsoft account. The EU is not the privacy paradise some make it seem to be. It's a corrupt, bureaucratic, exploitive nightmare with some splashes of democracy here and there. Von der Leyen is the perfectly ridiculous representative, she left nothing but corruption, collusion and incompetence in her wake.
    - GJim 5mo ago
      > It is very hard to live in Germany without having a google account Which in the EU/UK, is subject to data protection law; including compulsory opt-in for sharing personal data! Granted, the scummy adtech industry push the law to the limit ("legitimate use"), meaning we need better regulation, not less. > The EU is not the privacy paradise some make it seem to be Nobody said anything about paradise, though considering the unrestrained nature of adtech in the USA, I certainly know under which laws I'd rather my (and others) personal data is kept.
  - monegator 5mo ago
tpm 5mo ago
In addition to the eCall system, note there is also the mandatory OBFCM (On-board Fuel and/or Energy Consumption Monitoring Device), that data is then downloaded from the vehicles using OBD during checks. The data is anonymized and you can opt out, but many people probably don't know it's collected in the first place.
GJim 5mo ago
Replying to my own comment to inform the reader that the fluctuation in moderation points I'm seeing is frankly, extreme! It looks like my parent comment has really touched a nerve here on HN: Privacy supporters Vs Adtech supporters, or maybe those who believe in rule of law, and those who think they can do what they like with others private data.
SV_BubbleTime 5mo ago
> Needless to say, cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features without an explicit opt-in thanks to sensible data protection legislation; including the GDPR. Automotive EE here... You are completely wrong and your rationale is based on misunderstandings of the laws. I have absolutely no idea how the laws work either, we’re the same. But, I promise you every single car in the EU with GPS and cell is reporting telemetry. Every and all.

by GJim 5mo ago

golem14 5mo ago

I'm tempted to say "oh you sweet summer child", because it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true (in the sense that the small print in rental cars and sales contracts doesn't allow it, ot it's done by law enforcement agencies surrepticiously). But maybe it IS true. I know it's legally mandated.

GJim 5mo ago
> it seems just unbelievable that the statement is true So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? Really? It's genuinely amazing how many Americans on here (a tech news site!) are unaware of data privacy law and expectations outside their homeland.
- jaapz 5mo ago
  > So do you think UK/EU vehicle manufactures are deliberately in mass breach of data privacy law... fully knowing the cost of a consumer backlash, fines and vehicle recall costs to fix any law breach? They were also in mass breach of vehicle emission laws. The fact that there was some backlash (although people didn't really stop buying VAG cars), people got prosecuted, the company got fined, didn't really change their decisions while they were pumping out fraudulent cars. Yes, we should have privacy laws like this in the EU, this is a good thing! But thinking that, when these laws are in place, all companies magically will follow them is naive. To them it's still a cost/benefit analysis, and history has shown short term benefit trumps many other things for these companies.
  - GJim 5mo ago
    ONE company did it (not a mass of them), resulting in massive fines and prosecutions; they certainly aren't going to do it again! I'd also suggest the backlash from breaches in data privacy would be much larger than from fiddling emissions tests (as evil as the latter was, it actually saved many customers money on a (more polluting) car with higher performance).
    - lucianbr 5mo ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Other_manufacturers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#O... > After news broke out of Volkswagen cheating on diesel emissions, multiple other vehicle manufacturers got caught falsifying emissions data, as well as exceeding legal emission limits. This uncovered a greater industry-wide issue that goes far beyond only Volkswagen Group.
  - vladms 5mo ago
    > To them it's still a cost/benefit analysis, and history has shown short term benefit trumps many other things for these companies. Doesn't that depend on the company though? Not all companies are focused in the same amount on short vs long term benefits. There are costs of not following the regulation (example, did not check in detail: https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/) and I do not hear (media, social network, etc.) anybody complaining about fines so I think it will just continue ad hopefully will change their opinion at some point.
- golem14 5mo ago
  I really do think there is a good chance that say MI5 or the BND or the DGSE flagrantly ignore the law to catch non-national evildoers, just as much as in the US. The temptation to do this 'in the name of security' is very high. Of course, I can't or won't prove it. And yes, I am _intimately_ familiar with the GDPR and other laws and regulations. The US also had (has) wiretapping laws that would have prevented snooping on Americans. I'm not claiming the EU is no better than the US, it clearly has better intentions. But fundamentally, I think the EU will end up in the same place as the US sooner or later, simply because the same forces are at play: desire for security >> desire for privacy for most people if the rubber hits the road. Here's some fun read for those who seek more info: https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-privacy-watchdog-sidelined-intel-service-bnd-bulk-up/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-privacy-watchdog-sid... https://www.bnd.bund.de/EN/Service/PrivacyPolicy/privacypolicy_node.html https://www.bnd.bund.de/EN/Service/PrivacyPolicy/privacypoli... https://www.lexxion.eu/?newsletters_method=newsletter&id=477 https://www.lexxion.eu/?newsletters_method=newsletter&id=477
- sailfast 5mo ago
  Yes. Or, more succinctly - they are likely following the law but have figured out a way to avoid it as written using consumer opt-in and dark patterns. You call it FUD, but this is hacker news and with overwhelming incentives it is not unreasonable to ask for verification that data isn’t being exfiltrated.

M95D 5mo ago

> (And before somebody shouts FUD about the UK/EU vehicle eCall 112 system, that certainly doesn't track you or seek to invade your privacy on any level!) How do you know? BTW, the checking all the opt-ins is usually the first thing the sales person does when selling a new car.

GJim 5mo ago
[flagged]
- DaSHacka 5mo ago
  Because no company has ever broken the law before
  - GJim 5mo ago
    What a ridiculous argument! So what is the point in having laws then? No doubt you believe any adtech request for personal data should be met by the subject promptly bending over and grabbing their ankles with both hands?
    - abc123abc123 5mo ago
      Laws exist to keep the common man in check, and to punish government organizations and corporations _if_ they get caught. The original purpose is to keep voters meek and to stop them from overthrowing the politicians. Laws have very little to do with scaring corporations and nations.
    - M95D 5mo ago
      I am absolutely sure (even though I can't give a link as proof) that all telephony operators everywhere have to provide a backdoor for the "authorities" in order to obtain their licence. So, yes, a telecom provider will be bending over immediately, or risk losing their licence. I also suspect that in many cases, the operator won't even be informed about the tracking because the gov agencies already have direct access to all the data.

monegator 5mo ago

>cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features If you say so. Maybe if you buy the car with cash, but if you finance it you are leasing from a company that has definetly accepted all the terms and conditions to capture and sell all the telemetry to various parties >without an explicit opt-in check out at a modern volvo/audi/whatever, they are making it so difficult to say no every single time the screen is powered on

GJim 5mo ago
[flagged]
- jona-f 5mo ago
  > It is illegal in the UK/EU to make provision of a service dependent on allowing your personal data to be sold to third parties. Nobody seems to care and this isn't enforced at all. It is very hard to live in Germany without having a google account. Many services are only offered via phone-app that is only available through play-store. I'd have to use apks from questionable, untrusted third-party websites. Good luck finding an employer that doesn't require you to have a microsoft account. The EU is not the privacy paradise some make it seem to be. It's a corrupt, bureaucratic, exploitive nightmare with some splashes of democracy here and there. Von der Leyen is the perfectly ridiculous representative, she left nothing but corruption, collusion and incompetence in her wake.
  - GJim 5mo ago
    > It is very hard to live in Germany without having a google account Which in the EU/UK, is subject to data protection law; including compulsory opt-in for sharing personal data! Granted, the scummy adtech industry push the law to the limit ("legitimate use"), meaning we need better regulation, not less. > The EU is not the privacy paradise some make it seem to be Nobody said anything about paradise, though considering the unrestrained nature of adtech in the USA, I certainly know under which laws I'd rather my (and others) personal data is kept.
- monegator 5mo ago

tpm 5mo ago

In addition to the eCall system, note there is also the mandatory OBFCM (On-board Fuel and/or Energy Consumption Monitoring Device), that data is then downloaded from the vehicles using OBD during checks. The data is anonymized and you can opt out, but many people probably don't know it's collected in the first place.

GJim 5mo ago

Replying to my own comment to inform the reader that the fluctuation in moderation points I'm seeing is frankly, extreme! It looks like my parent comment has really touched a nerve here on HN: Privacy supporters Vs Adtech supporters, or maybe those who believe in rule of law, and those who think they can do what they like with others private data.

SV_BubbleTime 5mo ago

> Needless to say, cars in the UK/EU have no such privacy invading features without an explicit opt-in thanks to sensible data protection legislation; including the GDPR. Automotive EE here... You are completely wrong and your rationale is based on misunderstandings of the laws. I have absolutely no idea how the laws work either, we’re the same. But, I promise you every single car in the EU with GPS and cell is reporting telemetry. Every and all.