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>Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token roy

>Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token royalties. Norway's was established in the 90s and is multiple orders of magnitude larger, because they don't allow big oil to fuck them over. >The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway has. You are being fed a narrative. Equalization payments are taken from federal tax revenues. Every Canadian pays taxes according to the same graduated tax rate schedule, whether Albertan or not. Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works.

dismalaf 5mo ago
> Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works. You're being pedantic. Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces.
- stackghost 5mo ago
  >Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. And you'd be incurring lots of new expenses like border controls, national security, etc. The last estimates I saw were that the total equalization payments attributable to Alberta were about a tenth of the cost of federal government services provided to Alberta. That is to say Albertan taxpayers would be on the hook for an additional 25 billion dollars annually, or so. >Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces. It's not pedantic, you're just factually incorrect. It's money that all Canadians already pay to the government (because it's money from federal income tax). There's no line item in the Alberta budget for "equalization payments". If we deleted the entire Equalization Program tomorrow, we'd all still be paying the same taxes.
  - dismalaf 5mo ago
    Since you don't seem to want to write in good faith here (or maybe you just don't understand, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), from the horse's mouth: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal-transfers/equalization.html https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal... And federal transfers: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal-transfers/major-federal-transfers.html https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal... If you really don't understand why Alberta pays more per capita, it's simple. We have more net taxpayers paying more federal taxes per capita.
    - stackghost 5mo ago
      From the link you posted: >Provincial governments make no contributions to the Equalization program. And: >All Canadians are subject to the same federal income tax system and its progressive rate structure, regardless of where they live. These both directly support my argument. I will make no further replies.
      - dismalaf 5mo ago
        Your argument is against a strawman of your own creation that you're using to hand-wave away the actual topic. If equalization is of no net benefit to anyone why does it exist? And why not just let Alberta leave? The two links explain it anyway, for observers, and show federal transfer payments by province and per capita.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
- jeromegv 5mo ago
  > If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. Yes. But you’d have to pay for your own border, army, customs, etc, etc. By that logic every single province could separate, become a country, and then what? Is that supposed to be more cost efficient? Would the economy and free market between each province better? Would Alberta oil be worth the same price without having pipelines going through every province? And then, why not have Calgary separate from Alberta. After all money from Calgary pays for roads in Edmonton and smaller towns. Surely we don’t want money leaving Calgary, if Calgary was independent, Calgary could keep its own money and not have their money “siphoned out”.
  - dismalaf 5mo ago
    > Yes. But you’d have to pay for your own border, army, customs, etc, etc. And? $45 billion of the Federal government's revenues come from Alberta. Another poster put the estimate of all these things at $26 billion. Sounds like an amazing deal. > After all money from Calgary pays for roads in Edmonton and smaller towns Municipal funds pay for roads, generally speaking. Provincial grants are only if it's proven that the road is essential infrastructure for the benefit of the whole province. The Federal government also gives grants from time to time.
jgon 5mo ago
Equally, you are being fed a narrative. Yes, yes, every Canadian pays into federal taxes that are then dispersed amongst provinces to give a relatively "equal" standard of living, hence the term equilization payments. But why does Alberta consistently send far more money than it receives? Just what is it that allows Albertans to pay so much more in taxes? And of course that doesn't even get into how the equalization formula is created and applied, what sorts of things are factored into a province's "fiscal capacity" and what things get factored out, and whether those parts of the formula could be slanted to benefit certain provinces more than others. Of course at this point you'd probably deflect and say that the current equalization formula was put in place by the Harper government because you think that I must support the conservatives and this is some sort of gotcha. The bottom line is that since the big oil and gas discoveries of the 60s Alberta has sent roughly 300 billion more to the federal government than it has received in return. This is of course part of being a province in a country, instead of a country itself like Norway is. And of course there has been mismanagement of the Heritage Fund, so Alberta is not blameless here. But the oft repeated talking point that Alberta doesn't actually really contribute disproportionately to the country is completely false. Why doesn't Alberta have a wealth fund on par with Norway? Because that money has instead been used to help fund hospitals, roads, schools and more across the rest of the country. I think that's a pretty good investment and I'm not upset about that, but I am upset when people don't even see that and choose instead to recycle a bunch of trite talking points that are basically lying by omission.
- stackghost 5mo ago
  >But why does Alberta consistently send far more money than it receives? The Province of Alberta sends no money at all. What part of this is so hard to understand? I live in BC, and we also are considered a "have" province, and we also do not send any money. The money comes from the Federal Government. It was never provincial money to begin with. It's tax money that is paid directly to the federal government by Canadians, and businesses. It does not come "from Alberta" or "from BC". >Just what is it that allows Albertans to pay so much more in taxes? Every single Canadian is subject to the exact same Federal Tax schedule. If you and I were in the same income tax bracket, we'd pay the exact same rate. If Albertans are "paying more in taxes" (doubtful), then that's Danielle's problem. But not a single cent of provincial tax revenue gets put into Equalization payments.

dismalaf 5mo ago

> Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works. You're being pedantic. Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces.

stackghost 5mo ago
>Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. And you'd be incurring lots of new expenses like border controls, national security, etc. The last estimates I saw were that the total equalization payments attributable to Alberta were about a tenth of the cost of federal government services provided to Alberta. That is to say Albertan taxpayers would be on the hook for an additional 25 billion dollars annually, or so. >Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces. It's not pedantic, you're just factually incorrect. It's money that all Canadians already pay to the government (because it's money from federal income tax). There's no line item in the Alberta budget for "equalization payments". If we deleted the entire Equalization Program tomorrow, we'd all still be paying the same taxes.
- dismalaf 5mo ago
  Since you don't seem to want to write in good faith here (or maybe you just don't understand, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), from the horse's mouth: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal-transfers/equalization.html https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal... And federal transfers: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal-transfers/major-federal-transfers.html https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal... If you really don't understand why Alberta pays more per capita, it's simple. We have more net taxpayers paying more federal taxes per capita.
  - stackghost 5mo ago
    From the link you posted: >Provincial governments make no contributions to the Equalization program. And: >All Canadians are subject to the same federal income tax system and its progressive rate structure, regardless of where they live. These both directly support my argument. I will make no further replies.
    - dismalaf 5mo ago
      Your argument is against a strawman of your own creation that you're using to hand-wave away the actual topic. If equalization is of no net benefit to anyone why does it exist? And why not just let Alberta leave? The two links explain it anyway, for observers, and show federal transfer payments by province and per capita.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
jeromegv 5mo ago
> If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. Yes. But you’d have to pay for your own border, army, customs, etc, etc. By that logic every single province could separate, become a country, and then what? Is that supposed to be more cost efficient? Would the economy and free market between each province better? Would Alberta oil be worth the same price without having pipelines going through every province? And then, why not have Calgary separate from Alberta. After all money from Calgary pays for roads in Edmonton and smaller towns. Surely we don’t want money leaving Calgary, if Calgary was independent, Calgary could keep its own money and not have their money “siphoned out”.
- dismalaf 5mo ago
  > Yes. But you’d have to pay for your own border, army, customs, etc, etc. And? $45 billion of the Federal government's revenues come from Alberta. Another poster put the estimate of all these things at $26 billion. Sounds like an amazing deal. > After all money from Calgary pays for roads in Edmonton and smaller towns Municipal funds pay for roads, generally speaking. Provincial grants are only if it's proven that the road is essential infrastructure for the benefit of the whole province. The Federal government also gives grants from time to time.

jgon 5mo ago

Equally, you are being fed a narrative. Yes, yes, every Canadian pays into federal taxes that are then dispersed amongst provinces to give a relatively "equal" standard of living, hence the term equilization payments. But why does Alberta consistently send far more money than it receives? Just what is it that allows Albertans to pay so much more in taxes? And of course that doesn't even get into how the equalization formula is created and applied, what sorts of things are factored into a province's "fiscal capacity" and what things get factored out, and whether those parts of the formula could be slanted to benefit certain provinces more than others. Of course at this point you'd probably deflect and say that the current equalization formula was put in place by the Harper government because you think that I must support the conservatives and this is some sort of gotcha. The bottom line is that since the big oil and gas discoveries of the 60s Alberta has sent roughly 300 billion more to the federal government than it has received in return. This is of course part of being a province in a country, instead of a country itself like Norway is. And of course there has been mismanagement of the Heritage Fund, so Alberta is not blameless here. But the oft repeated talking point that Alberta doesn't actually really contribute disproportionately to the country is completely false. Why doesn't Alberta have a wealth fund on par with Norway? Because that money has instead been used to help fund hospitals, roads, schools and more across the rest of the country. I think that's a pretty good investment and I'm not upset about that, but I am upset when people don't even see that and choose instead to recycle a bunch of trite talking points that are basically lying by omission.

stackghost 5mo ago
>But why does Alberta consistently send far more money than it receives? The Province of Alberta sends no money at all. What part of this is so hard to understand? I live in BC, and we also are considered a "have" province, and we also do not send any money. The money comes from the Federal Government. It was never provincial money to begin with. It's tax money that is paid directly to the federal government by Canadians, and businesses. It does not come "from Alberta" or "from BC". >Just what is it that allows Albertans to pay so much more in taxes? Every single Canadian is subject to the exact same Federal Tax schedule. If you and I were in the same income tax bracket, we'd pay the exact same rate. If Albertans are "paying more in taxes" (doubtful), then that's Danielle's problem. But not a single cent of provincial tax revenue gets put into Equalization payments.