4 ms·

We are talking about one person's introduction of a technology to persons and the implications of that action within the framework of enterprise governance and

We are talking about one person's introduction of a technology to persons and the implications of that action within the framework of enterprise governance and risk, it is one in the same. If anything, who a person is, their knowledge of the domain and the associated implications that action has on the domain has relevancy where someone who is ignorant of implications may have more grace than someone who has the experience to know better. The passive lack of accountability or responsibility relative to that does matter given the context.

dumfries 5mo ago
You have to understand that people like you, that you that keep talking about enterprise governance and risk, should facilitate business users to do these things securely. This should have always been the case but somehow it has ended up more with restricting rather than facilitating. Hopefully tools like claude code will prove the value add more easily, changing everything I hate about corp IT.
- Ucalegon 5mo ago
  I appreciate the feeling but this isn't so much driven by principle but by business risk through contract liability or other liability that exists within whatever place you happen to be doing business. 'Adding value' is a very interesting statement and way to judge the worth of something. Adding value to who? And if that value add also causes massive harms, how do we reconcile that? So you build a brand new app with does all of the things that all of your total addressable market wants, but it also exposes all of the IP your existing clients, does that mean you will be able to achieve that TAM? Corp IT does not exist in a vacuum. Understanding the why of that isn't a 'you should just accept this' but more 'how can we make this better and avoid mistakes already made by others'. I will always point to aviation and 'bold text is written in blood' as a great model to understand all of this not as a blocker but, instead, as a building block.
  - foobar10000 5mo ago
    Note that _passenger aviation_ is commercially non-competitive. The big 4 US airlines make money on credit cards, not airfare : they lose money on airfare. So, most people who are trying to make money will not use them as a model. In general, safe businesses can only exist with government support or government prohibition of all other businesses globally - and that is a very hard bar to clear.
criley2 5mo ago
There is no way to facilitate untrained users in the healthcare space to vibe code real applications touching patient data. There is no magic policy, firewall, or "facilitation technique" which can make vibe coded software reliably meet contractual and regulatory obligations with a high degree of security in the healthcare space. If you care about data privacy, especially your own protected health information, that sentence should give you a lot of comfort. In a HIPAA environment, people who are sufficiently trained on how to develop regulated software securely are called "software engineers". In my opinion, agents will replace the majority of the rest of businesses before they are good enough at agentic engineering to be able to autonomously develop software that safely and reliably can manage PHI without a single mistake. It goes without saying: never trust your PHI to any company who is vibe coding in production.
- infecto 5mo ago
  You guys have jumped to so many conclusions it’s amazing.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
foobar10000 5mo ago
I think the one thing you are not taking into account is that the investors on average fundamentally don’t care. Scale arbitrage means that small companies are fundamentally about velocity - and if they get sued due to regulations that do not pierce the corporate veil, they just fold. And the ones that did not get sued make money for the vc. And figure out later how to be hipaa etc compliant. Basically, I’ve been seeing over the last 10 years VCs are not caring about insurance or corporate liability - sink rate is so high it is irrelevant. For big corps - this is different. But modulo hipaa - this is why they are gung ho hi about binding arbitration - they are trying to match velocity to some degree - and mostly failing…
- Ucalegon 5mo ago
  VCs and investors are a massive issue, which is ironic saying that here, but once you get into contracts with other businesses, it changes things for the business and the leadership within who do carry liability when things go wrong, especially when they have made attestations.
  - foobar10000 5mo ago
    "who do carry liability when things go wrong" -> unless one pierces the corporate veil, it's just money. Not even their money. HIPAA - unless basically stealing data - will not generate personal liability. And even for SOX will only generate liability in limited amounts for limited people - and executives will go a long way towards avoiding the entire thing. From what I have seen - most executives would rather shut down the business and quit than accept the possibility of personal liability - and just avoid the regions of the world in which they do have it.
tclancy 5mo ago
What we are talking about is the conclusion you leapt to from 20 seconds of looking for evidence to suit a conclusion. Nothing in their comment "These are largely friends and peers, so they ultimately own their own risks" insists these are all people working in or on healthcare. Friends could be ... friends? Like the kind outside of work. And if someone is a peer (again, we have to assume the "at work" part), there isn't much you can do to prevent them from doing what they will. Educating them about trigger safety may be the best thing you can do.
- Ucalegon 5mo ago
  >Every executive/leader I've shown Claude Cowork to has gone from 'what is AI' to 'vibecoding whole apps' in weeks. [0] I think this is where we have the issue in my tone and approach to my comments. My response was based off of the OP stating that the people who they were introduction were 'executives/leaders' and not 'friends', which has a very different connotation when it comes to information security, liability, responsibility, accountability, and ownership. It was only in their response to my question about risk ownership that they described the persons as friends. If they had said 'friends' from the very beginning, instead of 'executive/leader' I would not have had the reaction than I did. The reason why I brought up HIPAA was because of 'executive/leader', since the idea of duty of care extends to leadership within any organization, especially those who are involved with healthcare, which they know based off of their company. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48131968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48131968
  - idiotsecant 5mo ago
    Stop digging.
    - Ucalegon 5mo ago
      I am not digging, I am being consistent. But I appreciate you trying to police the expression of my deeply held beliefs, but, like, nope!
  - tclancy 5mo ago
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]

dumfries 5mo ago

You have to understand that people like you, that you that keep talking about enterprise governance and risk, should facilitate business users to do these things securely. This should have always been the case but somehow it has ended up more with restricting rather than facilitating. Hopefully tools like claude code will prove the value add more easily, changing everything I hate about corp IT.

Ucalegon 5mo ago
I appreciate the feeling but this isn't so much driven by principle but by business risk through contract liability or other liability that exists within whatever place you happen to be doing business. 'Adding value' is a very interesting statement and way to judge the worth of something. Adding value to who? And if that value add also causes massive harms, how do we reconcile that? So you build a brand new app with does all of the things that all of your total addressable market wants, but it also exposes all of the IP your existing clients, does that mean you will be able to achieve that TAM? Corp IT does not exist in a vacuum. Understanding the why of that isn't a 'you should just accept this' but more 'how can we make this better and avoid mistakes already made by others'. I will always point to aviation and 'bold text is written in blood' as a great model to understand all of this not as a blocker but, instead, as a building block.
- foobar10000 5mo ago
  Note that _passenger aviation_ is commercially non-competitive. The big 4 US airlines make money on credit cards, not airfare : they lose money on airfare. So, most people who are trying to make money will not use them as a model. In general, safe businesses can only exist with government support or government prohibition of all other businesses globally - and that is a very hard bar to clear.

criley2 5mo ago

There is no way to facilitate untrained users in the healthcare space to vibe code real applications touching patient data. There is no magic policy, firewall, or "facilitation technique" which can make vibe coded software reliably meet contractual and regulatory obligations with a high degree of security in the healthcare space. If you care about data privacy, especially your own protected health information, that sentence should give you a lot of comfort. In a HIPAA environment, people who are sufficiently trained on how to develop regulated software securely are called "software engineers". In my opinion, agents will replace the majority of the rest of businesses before they are good enough at agentic engineering to be able to autonomously develop software that safely and reliably can manage PHI without a single mistake. It goes without saying: never trust your PHI to any company who is vibe coding in production.

infecto 5mo ago
You guys have jumped to so many conclusions it’s amazing.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]

foobar10000 5mo ago

I think the one thing you are not taking into account is that the investors on average fundamentally don’t care. Scale arbitrage means that small companies are fundamentally about velocity - and if they get sued due to regulations that do not pierce the corporate veil, they just fold. And the ones that did not get sued make money for the vc. And figure out later how to be hipaa etc compliant. Basically, I’ve been seeing over the last 10 years VCs are not caring about insurance or corporate liability - sink rate is so high it is irrelevant. For big corps - this is different. But modulo hipaa - this is why they are gung ho hi about binding arbitration - they are trying to match velocity to some degree - and mostly failing…

Ucalegon 5mo ago
VCs and investors are a massive issue, which is ironic saying that here, but once you get into contracts with other businesses, it changes things for the business and the leadership within who do carry liability when things go wrong, especially when they have made attestations.
- foobar10000 5mo ago
  "who do carry liability when things go wrong" -> unless one pierces the corporate veil, it's just money. Not even their money. HIPAA - unless basically stealing data - will not generate personal liability. And even for SOX will only generate liability in limited amounts for limited people - and executives will go a long way towards avoiding the entire thing. From what I have seen - most executives would rather shut down the business and quit than accept the possibility of personal liability - and just avoid the regions of the world in which they do have it.

tclancy 5mo ago

What we are talking about is the conclusion you leapt to from 20 seconds of looking for evidence to suit a conclusion. Nothing in their comment "These are largely friends and peers, so they ultimately own their own risks" insists these are all people working in or on healthcare. Friends could be ... friends? Like the kind outside of work. And if someone is a peer (again, we have to assume the "at work" part), there isn't much you can do to prevent them from doing what they will. Educating them about trigger safety may be the best thing you can do.

Ucalegon 5mo ago
>Every executive/leader I've shown Claude Cowork to has gone from 'what is AI' to 'vibecoding whole apps' in weeks. [0] I think this is where we have the issue in my tone and approach to my comments. My response was based off of the OP stating that the people who they were introduction were 'executives/leaders' and not 'friends', which has a very different connotation when it comes to information security, liability, responsibility, accountability, and ownership. It was only in their response to my question about risk ownership that they described the persons as friends. If they had said 'friends' from the very beginning, instead of 'executive/leader' I would not have had the reaction than I did. The reason why I brought up HIPAA was because of 'executive/leader', since the idea of duty of care extends to leadership within any organization, especially those who are involved with healthcare, which they know based off of their company. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48131968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48131968
- idiotsecant 5mo ago
  Stop digging.
  - Ucalegon 5mo ago
    I am not digging, I am being consistent. But I appreciate you trying to police the expression of my deeply held beliefs, but, like, nope!
- tclancy 5mo ago

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]