4 ms·

The fish rots from the head. It's a sucker's game to aspire to selflessly serve the greater good when the most powerful people in the land are brazenly corrupt

by kibwen 5mo ago

The fish rots from the head. It's a sucker's game to aspire to selflessly serve the greater good when the most powerful people in the land are brazenly corrupt pedophiles. In other words: monkey see, monkey do.

JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
> fish rots from the head Does it? Did it? We elected the "brazenly corrupt pedophiles." This question seems complex and important enough to not be resolved with a truism.
- afavour 5mo ago
  The brazenly corrupt also own the vast media ecosystem that can help swing elections. Should we all know better? Probably. But they control the education system too, so…
- kibwen 5mo ago
  Trump was not the beginning of the decline, only the terminal symptom.
  - kfse 5mo ago
    Terminal? We don't know if worse is yet to come.
  - marginalia_nu 5mo ago
    Yeah I think Reagan's reforms of the antitrust laws, and the subsequent fall of the Soviet union are probably some of the first dominoes toward the new gilded age. The lack of competition from the Soviets is probably one of the bigger systemic causes. The cold war in no small part a war for hearts and minds in the democratic world. It was existentially important that the west believed in America, both the US itself and its allies. As long as the Soviets were around as existence proof for an alternate world order, the US needed at least visibly have its shit in order. If today's clown fiesta had unfolded 50 years ago, well comrade, сегодня мы все говорили бы по-русски.
- htx80nerd 5mo ago
  [flagged]
- paulryanrogers 5mo ago
  Hard to say for certain. Though I do think it goes both ways. People at the bottom influence culture from bottom up, folks at the top from the top down.
  - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
    > I do think it goes both ways If we flip the snake so it goes along the political spectrum, with the biting ends being extremists, I suppose the fish does rot from the heads. Top-down versus bottom-up is a more-complicated situation, and I suspect it's closer to turbulence than anything monotonic.
- Waterluvian 5mo ago
  It really doesn’t. Trump wouldn’t survive election if the electorate didn’t seek, or at least tolerate whatever the hell you can call that. Americans will conveniently point fingers at him (as is their political tradition) but he’s a consequence of a much deeper disease.
WillPostForFood 5mo ago
Or it is a dilution of the culture through mass media, social media, and immigration from countries with different values.
- watwut 5mo ago
  None of those corrupt leaders is from elsewhere. And native born americans have higher criminality then immigrants. All of that corrupt leadership is celebrated by american americans who see themselves as true americans.
- 9x39 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - nkrisc 5mo ago
    Not if your criticism is meant to scapegoat immigrants for homegrown American-made problems.
- pwndByDeath 5mo ago
  Everyone has an anecdote of the immigrant they know who's a much better "American" in their values. The same for anecdotes of the people with the least American values being home grown and inbred
elmomle 5mo ago
Yes, and: the rot started long ago, this is just what it looks like when it goes unchecked. To quote Mencius: Mencius went to see King Hui of Liang. The king said, “Venerable sir, since you have not counted it far to come here, may I presume that you are provided with counsels to profit my kingdom?” Mencius replied, “Why must Your Majesty use that word ‘profit’? What I am provided with are counsels to benevolence and righteousness, and these are my only topics. If Your Majesty say, ‘What is to be done to profit my kingdom?’ the great officers will say, ‘What is to be done to profit our families?’ and the inferior officers and common people will say, ‘What is to be done to profit our persons?’ Superiors and inferiors will try to snatch this profit one from another, and the kingdom will be endangered.”
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
lll-o-lll 5mo ago
> The fish rots from the head. The old adage that the people elect the governance they deserve; comes to mind. The concepts of Virtue, Honour, Duty, and Justice have been declining in the West over a very long period (this is not a US specific thing). The rotting head reflects the rotting society. > It's a sucker's game to aspire to selflessly serve the greater good when the most powerful people in the land are brazenly corrupt You don’t act honourably because that will “get you ahead”. You act honourably because it is right.
- afavour 5mo ago
  > You don’t act honourably because that will “get you ahead”. You act honourably because it is right. As much as I would like to believe that’s true I don’t think it is. You act honourably because society incentivises you to. To act dishonourably is to be disadvantaged, to be shamed, to be cast out. That is the part that’s missing today.
  - jdlshore 5mo ago
    I see where you’re coming from, but something about this framing bothers me. I think acting honorably has to come from within. It’s something that people need to do regardless of rewards or incentives. Now, how we create a culture that actually does so… that has to come from society. But, imo, if people only act honorably because they’re rewarded for it, and they don’t when no one is looking… that’s not acting honorably at all.
    - lovemenot 5mo ago
      You can both be right. I live in a high trust society (Japan), but was raised elsewhere. When I first came here, there were times I had to suppress my instinct to take opportunistic advantage. That was intrinsic motivation. Later, I had adapted to the culture around me. Such instincts rarely arise as it had become extrinsic.
    - afavour 5mo ago
      My pessimistic take is that the majority of the population will simply never do that. Look at organized religion. One of its key promises is “behave in life and you’ll get everything you could ever dream of in the afterlife”. I don’t think it’s coincidental.
whyenot 5mo ago
It's a nice saying, but the "head" changes every 4-8 years and this is a problem that has gotten worse over decades. Sometimes the rot doesn't start from the head.

by kibwen 5mo ago

JumpCrisscross 5mo ago

> fish rots from the head Does it? Did it? We elected the "brazenly corrupt pedophiles." This question seems complex and important enough to not be resolved with a truism.

afavour 5mo ago
The brazenly corrupt also own the vast media ecosystem that can help swing elections. Should we all know better? Probably. But they control the education system too, so…
kibwen 5mo ago
Trump was not the beginning of the decline, only the terminal symptom.
- kfse 5mo ago
  Terminal? We don't know if worse is yet to come.
- marginalia_nu 5mo ago
  Yeah I think Reagan's reforms of the antitrust laws, and the subsequent fall of the Soviet union are probably some of the first dominoes toward the new gilded age. The lack of competition from the Soviets is probably one of the bigger systemic causes. The cold war in no small part a war for hearts and minds in the democratic world. It was existentially important that the west believed in America, both the US itself and its allies. As long as the Soviets were around as existence proof for an alternate world order, the US needed at least visibly have its shit in order. If today's clown fiesta had unfolded 50 years ago, well comrade, сегодня мы все говорили бы по-русски.
htx80nerd 5mo ago
[flagged]
paulryanrogers 5mo ago
Hard to say for certain. Though I do think it goes both ways. People at the bottom influence culture from bottom up, folks at the top from the top down.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
  > I do think it goes both ways If we flip the snake so it goes along the political spectrum, with the biting ends being extremists, I suppose the fish does rot from the heads. Top-down versus bottom-up is a more-complicated situation, and I suspect it's closer to turbulence than anything monotonic.
Waterluvian 5mo ago
It really doesn’t. Trump wouldn’t survive election if the electorate didn’t seek, or at least tolerate whatever the hell you can call that. Americans will conveniently point fingers at him (as is their political tradition) but he’s a consequence of a much deeper disease.

WillPostForFood 5mo ago

Or it is a dilution of the culture through mass media, social media, and immigration from countries with different values.

watwut 5mo ago
None of those corrupt leaders is from elsewhere. And native born americans have higher criminality then immigrants. All of that corrupt leadership is celebrated by american americans who see themselves as true americans.
9x39 5mo ago
[flagged]
- nkrisc 5mo ago
  Not if your criticism is meant to scapegoat immigrants for homegrown American-made problems.
pwndByDeath 5mo ago
Everyone has an anecdote of the immigrant they know who's a much better "American" in their values. The same for anecdotes of the people with the least American values being home grown and inbred

elmomle 5mo ago

Yes, and: the rot started long ago, this is just what it looks like when it goes unchecked. To quote Mencius: Mencius went to see King Hui of Liang. The king said, “Venerable sir, since you have not counted it far to come here, may I presume that you are provided with counsels to profit my kingdom?” Mencius replied, “Why must Your Majesty use that word ‘profit’? What I am provided with are counsels to benevolence and righteousness, and these are my only topics. If Your Majesty say, ‘What is to be done to profit my kingdom?’ the great officers will say, ‘What is to be done to profit our families?’ and the inferior officers and common people will say, ‘What is to be done to profit our persons?’ Superiors and inferiors will try to snatch this profit one from another, and the kingdom will be endangered.”

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]

lll-o-lll 5mo ago

> The fish rots from the head. The old adage that the people elect the governance they deserve; comes to mind. The concepts of Virtue, Honour, Duty, and Justice have been declining in the West over a very long period (this is not a US specific thing). The rotting head reflects the rotting society. > It's a sucker's game to aspire to selflessly serve the greater good when the most powerful people in the land are brazenly corrupt You don’t act honourably because that will “get you ahead”. You act honourably because it is right.

afavour 5mo ago
> You don’t act honourably because that will “get you ahead”. You act honourably because it is right. As much as I would like to believe that’s true I don’t think it is. You act honourably because society incentivises you to. To act dishonourably is to be disadvantaged, to be shamed, to be cast out. That is the part that’s missing today.
- jdlshore 5mo ago
  I see where you’re coming from, but something about this framing bothers me. I think acting honorably has to come from within. It’s something that people need to do regardless of rewards or incentives. Now, how we create a culture that actually does so… that has to come from society. But, imo, if people only act honorably because they’re rewarded for it, and they don’t when no one is looking… that’s not acting honorably at all.
  - lovemenot 5mo ago
    You can both be right. I live in a high trust society (Japan), but was raised elsewhere. When I first came here, there were times I had to suppress my instinct to take opportunistic advantage. That was intrinsic motivation. Later, I had adapted to the culture around me. Such instincts rarely arise as it had become extrinsic.
  - afavour 5mo ago
    My pessimistic take is that the majority of the population will simply never do that. Look at organized religion. One of its key promises is “behave in life and you’ll get everything you could ever dream of in the afterlife”. I don’t think it’s coincidental.

whyenot 5mo ago

It's a nice saying, but the "head" changes every 4-8 years and this is a problem that has gotten worse over decades. Sometimes the rot doesn't start from the head.