5 ms·

My read on those was basically that the classic filesystems are hopelessly broken and we need ACID guarantees in the next-gen filesystems, like 20 years ago. N

My read on those was basically that the classic filesystems are hopelessly broken and we need ACID guarantees in the next-gen filesystems, like 20 years ago. Not saying all of them were about FS TOCTOU bugs but once I got to these, that was my takeaway. Obviously just using Rust cannot fix _all_ bugs, and I reject any criticisms towards Rust rewrites that tear down this particular straw man (its goal being to make it impossible to argue against). That's toxic and I get surprised every time people on HN try to argue in that childish way. But if we can remove all C memory safety foot guns then that by itself is worth a lot already. Losing decades-old knowledge on how the dysfunctional lower-level systems work would be regrettable and even near-fatal for any such projects. That I'd agree with. But it also raises the question on whether those lower-level systems don't need a very hard long look and -- eventually -- a replacement.

LtWorf 5mo ago
But removing all the memory footguns while introducing hundreds of syscalls footguns where rust won't help you at all might not be better at all,
- pdimitar 5mo ago
  I agree, absolutely. Hence my adjacent thought that maybe all this should just be thrown away and we should invent an FS with ACID semantics. I'm all for gradual improvements but at one point and on we should zoom even further out and pick our battles well.
  - overfeed 5mo ago
    > maybe all this should just be thrown away and we should invent an FS with ACID semantics. You're describing WinFS, which looked into and ultimately abandoned Microsoft 20 years ago. I'm sure other groups have looked into this as well, but there's no such thing as free lunch. > I'm all for gradual improvements but at one point and on we should zoom even further out and pick our battles well. That sounds a lot like picking up more battles, yet we all still have 24 hours a day. Recursively trying to perfect lower layers will have you like Hal changing the lightbulb https://youtu.be/AbSehcT19u0 https://youtu.be/AbSehcT19u0
    - pdimitar 5mo ago
      Well, recursively trying to perfect lower layers is what I am advocating for us to not do. As a guy who prefers to stop and think before coding, to me a lot of the older UNIX / GNU primitives seem broken (like the env vars process inheriting discussion that was here a while ago) and should be completely rethought. I also think people overreact and believe "everything will break". And we have libraries and runtimes that only implement small parts of libc and the deployed apps that use them are running mostly fine for years. My broader point was: shall we not start breaking away from all this legacy? Must we always rely on corporations to lead the charge? But yes, I do of course agree with the only 24h a day thing. And likely nobody would want to pay for such a trail-blazing work anyway. Sad world.
  - kokada 5mo ago
    If we are going so far to only guarantee correctness if we are using a FS that implements ACID semantics, why not just reinvent the whole kernel and remove all footguns, including memory safety? We could have a OS that each syscall to memory allocation can only be done through safe API. Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense. The only reason we have things like Rust and other memory safe languages is because we want to create safer programs in the existing imperfect OSes that we have currently.
    - pdimitar 5mo ago
      Why not indeed? It would bring me a lot of hope. Some time ago I loved the idea of Fuchsia... but then I learned it's made by Google. Sigh.
      - kokada 5mo ago
        Yes, this is why I am saying your idea of just reinventing the FS doesn't make sense. You don't get neither the wider ecosystem you get by having an OS compatible with e.g., POSIX semantics nor all the benefits you could get if you reinvent the whole OS.
overfeed 5mo ago
I like rust as a language, but boy, the violent, zero-sum proselytising gets on my nerves. It's not enough for Rust to win, but C must be beaten to a pulp and its head mounted on a pike. New projects wearing an another project's skin have always bothered me - regardless of language. Ubuntu did a similar thing way back with libav masquerading as ffmpeg.
- pdimitar 5mo ago
  How dramatic. I'll ask you as well: any proof for those colorful pictures you're drawing? Or are the people advocating for Rust a convenient target to vent other, very likely completely unrelated, frustrations? I'm very happy to work with multiple programming languages without getting religious about any of them. They all have drawbacks, Rust included of course. However, just my mere skepticism about the existence of the "violent proselytizing for Rust" of course immediately had me put in some imaginary group of fanatics. Which is of course normal. People love their binary camps and nuance and discission about merits be damned.
  - bayindirh 5mo ago
    As another data point, I have gone through enough flame wars, incl. the usual ones, and Rust. There's certainly a fanatic group of Rust developers who really want to eradicate C and C++ from the people's knowledge and all codebases in this universe, so far so openly hating the developers and designers of the said languages. Same was (or still is) true for some LLVM/clang people w.r.t. GCC. This is why I use neither. I'm always happy to discuss PLT and merits of programming languages with neutral parties, even in lively fashion, but when open-mindedness gets thrown out of the window, I do leave the room. These kinds of healthy discussions will benefit both parties. Hubris, ego, closed-mindedness and fanaticism won't. Related: What Killed Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby, Too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0
    - pdimitar 5mo ago
      Well, I don't see them in HN is what I am saying. Obviously not scanning 24/7 but every time I enter an HN thread where Rust is even loosely mentioned, I brace for the inevitable bullies imagining they are victims. And this thread is exactly the same, sadly. I am genuinely curious where this fanatic group is. Where are you witnessing them?

LtWorf 5mo ago

But removing all the memory footguns while introducing hundreds of syscalls footguns where rust won't help you at all might not be better at all,

pdimitar 5mo ago
I agree, absolutely. Hence my adjacent thought that maybe all this should just be thrown away and we should invent an FS with ACID semantics. I'm all for gradual improvements but at one point and on we should zoom even further out and pick our battles well.
- overfeed 5mo ago
  > maybe all this should just be thrown away and we should invent an FS with ACID semantics. You're describing WinFS, which looked into and ultimately abandoned Microsoft 20 years ago. I'm sure other groups have looked into this as well, but there's no such thing as free lunch. > I'm all for gradual improvements but at one point and on we should zoom even further out and pick our battles well. That sounds a lot like picking up more battles, yet we all still have 24 hours a day. Recursively trying to perfect lower layers will have you like Hal changing the lightbulb https://youtu.be/AbSehcT19u0 https://youtu.be/AbSehcT19u0
  - pdimitar 5mo ago
    Well, recursively trying to perfect lower layers is what I am advocating for us to not do. As a guy who prefers to stop and think before coding, to me a lot of the older UNIX / GNU primitives seem broken (like the env vars process inheriting discussion that was here a while ago) and should be completely rethought. I also think people overreact and believe "everything will break". And we have libraries and runtimes that only implement small parts of libc and the deployed apps that use them are running mostly fine for years. My broader point was: shall we not start breaking away from all this legacy? Must we always rely on corporations to lead the charge? But yes, I do of course agree with the only 24h a day thing. And likely nobody would want to pay for such a trail-blazing work anyway. Sad world.
- kokada 5mo ago
  If we are going so far to only guarantee correctness if we are using a FS that implements ACID semantics, why not just reinvent the whole kernel and remove all footguns, including memory safety? We could have a OS that each syscall to memory allocation can only be done through safe API. Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense. The only reason we have things like Rust and other memory safe languages is because we want to create safer programs in the existing imperfect OSes that we have currently.
  - pdimitar 5mo ago
    Why not indeed? It would bring me a lot of hope. Some time ago I loved the idea of Fuchsia... but then I learned it's made by Google. Sigh.
    - kokada 5mo ago
      Yes, this is why I am saying your idea of just reinventing the FS doesn't make sense. You don't get neither the wider ecosystem you get by having an OS compatible with e.g., POSIX semantics nor all the benefits you could get if you reinvent the whole OS.

overfeed 5mo ago

I like rust as a language, but boy, the violent, zero-sum proselytising gets on my nerves. It's not enough for Rust to win, but C must be beaten to a pulp and its head mounted on a pike. New projects wearing an another project's skin have always bothered me - regardless of language. Ubuntu did a similar thing way back with libav masquerading as ffmpeg.

pdimitar 5mo ago
How dramatic. I'll ask you as well: any proof for those colorful pictures you're drawing? Or are the people advocating for Rust a convenient target to vent other, very likely completely unrelated, frustrations? I'm very happy to work with multiple programming languages without getting religious about any of them. They all have drawbacks, Rust included of course. However, just my mere skepticism about the existence of the "violent proselytizing for Rust" of course immediately had me put in some imaginary group of fanatics. Which is of course normal. People love their binary camps and nuance and discission about merits be damned.
- bayindirh 5mo ago
  As another data point, I have gone through enough flame wars, incl. the usual ones, and Rust. There's certainly a fanatic group of Rust developers who really want to eradicate C and C++ from the people's knowledge and all codebases in this universe, so far so openly hating the developers and designers of the said languages. Same was (or still is) true for some LLVM/clang people w.r.t. GCC. This is why I use neither. I'm always happy to discuss PLT and merits of programming languages with neutral parties, even in lively fashion, but when open-mindedness gets thrown out of the window, I do leave the room. These kinds of healthy discussions will benefit both parties. Hubris, ego, closed-mindedness and fanaticism won't. Related: What Killed Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby, Too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0
  - pdimitar 5mo ago
    Well, I don't see them in HN is what I am saying. Obviously not scanning 24/7 but every time I enter an HN thread where Rust is even loosely mentioned, I brace for the inevitable bullies imagining they are victims. And this thread is exactly the same, sadly. I am genuinely curious where this fanatic group is. Where are you witnessing them?