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"Young adult suicide rates dropped after U.S. launched 988 hotline": * https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/988-crisis-hotline-linked-to-drop-in-young-ad

• timcobb 5mo ago
  Yes, they seem to work for many people. I don't mean to belittle that, I guess that is good. But, I'm not sure how that's interesting because "something works for somebody" is true for just about every category. For example, some people want to work at Palantir and find it interesting that some executive named Steve Cohen runs the AC at 60 degrees and eats ice cubes all day to aid cognition[0]. There's a very wide diversity of people out there, so the fact that some find this appealing is not interesting or surprising. So, the question, in my mind, is less that something works for somebody, and more about the broader meaning of this civilizational function. [0] https://nabeelqu.substack.com/p/reflections-on-palantir https://nabeelqu.substack.com/p/reflections-on-palantir (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41855006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41855006)
  • mden 5mo ago
    Can you explain what your point really was then? Belittling the idea of hotlines seemed central in your messaging and the possible exploitation of data more of a secondary thing. It's fine to be cynical but it's also good to remember that there are real people that do care and try to improve the world as well.
    • timcobb 5mo ago
      Sure, concretely, my point was that hotlines are a very capitalist feeling thing for me. Probably because of trying to deal with corporiations, from monopolies/utilities to things like airlines. My experience in this realm has been one of alienation. So, taking the hotline and applying it to people in suicidal crisis is like peak alienation in my mind. Personally, I'm not anti-capitalist, but capitalism to me is tied up conceptually with money and expedience. Feelings, in my opinion, are sort of in a different human realm. But yes, for sure, that alienation as I allege it, is probably good for many people in crisis who are uncomfortable with the people around them. However, the question of why it is that such people aren't comfortable with anyone around them is the bigger one in my mind. > Please drink responsibily To me, although they work, suicide hotlines appear to be a naked corporate CYA, just like gambling and other addiction hotlines. Civilization will beat you down, won't give you health insurance except for a few free COVID shots (then, suddenly, people can totally mobilize to administer collective healthcare), but hey when you've just about had it, here's a hotline you can call (and we'll sell your data hahahahaha sucker).
      • watwut 5mo ago
        They are literally government paid social service you can call without additional charge. What the hell is capitalist about it? Also Dutch give you health insurance beyond covid shot.
        • timcobb 5mo ago
          > What the hell is capitalist about it? The rest, everything else. It's darkly amusing to me we don't get healthcare here in the US but we do get suicide hotlines. EDIT: wouldn't be surprised if Trump defunded/privatized suicide hotlines using companies run by the Trump Org.
          • yladiz 5mo ago
            > The rest, everything else. What are you specifically talking about? What is “everything else”?
            • KennyBlanken 5mo ago
              Why are you continuing to argue with someone who from their second response or third response in the thead - is at best disingenuous?
              • timcobb 5mo ago
                Brutal that you would think I am being disingenuous based on my responses. Sad for me genuinely.
            • timcobb 5mo ago
              Existence, where you're just thrown out there to sink or swim and that's thats. If you're lucky you have parents and/or friends who can help you. If you're not, well... good luck!
              • watwut 5mo ago
    • giantg2 5mo ago
      Not the OP, but I saw it as a bandaid. Creating a hotline vs fixing underlying societal issues is a quick fix but doesn't fix the real drivers of the longterm increases.
      • IAmBroom 5mo ago
        Do you keep bandaids in your house? Or do you rely purely on the Emergency Room a/o "toughing it out"? Bandaids are useful. And can save measurable numbers of lives.
    • some_random 5mo ago
      Most people don't believe in incremental progress anymore, either it works 100% of the time and solves everything forever or it's a failure and you probably wanted it to fail because you're evil.
      • timcobb 5mo ago
        No I believe that what you have with the 11 percent decrease is reflective of diversity among people and what causes crisis. Suicide hotlines work for some people in some cases, that is undeniable. But it's not incremental in that you're not going to then iterate on the hotline and make it more effective and one day we've got 20% and so on. That won't be the case because the hotline is just not appealing for many people. It's good for the people it's good for, but that doesn't mean it's not a civilizational CYA/"not my problem".
        • voxic11 5mo ago
          Are you under the impression that hotlines are the only intervention that is being explored?
          • timcobb 5mo ago
            No.
        • some_random 5mo ago
          You already called suicide hotlines capitalist, I don't have any respect for your opinion on this matter.
  • wat10000 5mo ago
    An 11% drop isn't "something works for somebody," it's "it works for a lot of people, substantially more people than it harms, making for a clear net gain." In individual with odd habits is a completely different thing. That comparison is utterly inapt. If you had an entire population that started running the AC at 60 degrees and eating ice cubes all day, and cognition measurably increased by 11%, that would be incredible news.
    • timcobb 5mo ago
      To be clear I'm not saying it's not a net gain. It's very clearly a net gain. But, just because it works doesn't mean it's not a capitalism solution using the capitalism hammer of talking to random people behind a phone (which, again, might be a net good thing for some people crisis). So again, I am not against anti-suicide hotlines. I am sincerely happy they help many people. I just think they are very symbolically representative of our capitalist alienated world where everything, down to our very drive to exist, has a corporate CYA hedge hotline.
      • IAmBroom 5mo ago
        I think you are very, very confused about the definition of capitalism.
• hirvi74 5mo ago
  It is interesting because while the hotline might help some, it can also do significant damage to others depending on what happens after the phone call. Of course, nothing in life is every 100% good for everyone or every situation. While not everyone that calls the hotline is involuntarily committed, I wonder how the data matches up with this finding [1]: > "In this meta-analysis of 100 studies of 183 patient samples, the postdischarge suicide rate was approximately 100 times the global suicide rate during the first 3 months after discharge and patients admitted with suicidal thoughts or behaviors had rates near 200 times the global rate. Even many years after discharge, previous psychiatric inpatients have suicide rates that are approximately 30 times higher than typical global rates." [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5710249/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5710249/
  • wat10000 5mo ago
    Are they accounting for the fact that people who are admitted with suicidal thoughts will tend to be those much more prone to suicide in the first place? It seems obvious, but it doesn't sound like they are. People who come home from the hospital after being admitted for cancer treatment will have a much higher cancer death rate than the general population, but that doesn't imply that hospital treatment is damaging.
    • hirvi74 5mo ago
      > Are they accounting for the fact that people who are admitted with suicidal thoughts will tend to be those much more prone to suicide in the first place? How certain are you that this is a fact? I agree that is seems like common sense on the surface, but that might not be the case. The closest I could find in the study was this: > However, the findings should curb enthusiasm for restrictive interventions directed at patients labeled as having high risk of suicide by virtue of demographic or clinical variables. Our figures suggest that 0.28% of all discharged patients can be expected to commit suicide during the first 3 months after discharge. The modest statistical strength of suicide risk assessment means that even patients who are classified as having high risk because of their suicide risk factors will have a low absolute probability of suicide over clinically meaningful time frames, whereas patients with a low risk for suicide will still have a probability of suicide that is many times that in the general community. It also seems that largest factor, and perhaps a better determinant of severity, is the number of times one is (re)admitted. > People who come home from the hospital after being admitted for cancer treatment will have a much higher cancer death rate than the general population How much higher? Do you think this statement is comparable to cancer treatment? > Our data suggest that the suicide rates among discharged patients have not decreased in the past 50 years. This is a disturbing finding considering the increase in community psychiatry and the availability of a range of new treatments during this period. I think this is the take away from the study that is also important: > However, the very high suicide rates calculated in this study and the known limitations of suicide risk assessment suggest that a focus on clinical risk assessment might mislead clinicians into thinking that some patients can be regarded as having low risk after discharge. Our findings better support the views of authors who believe in a more universal approach to suicide prevention that might focus on periods of high risk but that extends for periods of years. Also, I need to clarify one thing. I apologize for any confusion. I realized how half-finished my initial comment was. I did not mean to imply the damage from facilities comes from treatments per se, though there are still risks with all treatments. I should have clarified that damage can occur from the systems surrounding the facility. The (incorrect) stigma surrounding admission, the potential police interventions, the medical debt from being admitted, loss of certain rights/job prospects, etc.. Yes, the facilities do help some individuals, that is their purpose, but some people are hesitant to say, call the hotline, out of fear of being committed, which can also be damaging.