4 ms·

> the principle was free trade Trade was free in the gulf, pre-war. > and some mixture of "we dont negotiate with terrorists" Negotiate for what? Iran was m

by ajross 5mo ago

> the principle was free trade Trade was free in the gulf, pre-war. > and some mixture of "we dont negotiate with terrorists" Negotiate for what? Iran was making no demands. Pithy or not, you seem to be just being obtuse. You're taking as a prior that there was a threat, something for which you (and the administration) have absolutely no evidence. And to repeat, in a PRACTICAL sense, even nodding to your incorrectly framed "principled" stance, the EFFECT of the war was 100% opposite to the thing you claim to be... defending? It's just insane, to be blunt, and I genuinely can't understand why a reasonable person could hold these opinions. It seems like trolling, honestly.

jvanderbot 5mo ago
You're ignoring Iran's negative effects on the world, and their increasing harassing of shipping, and their support of Russian wars and terrorist actions throughout the middle east (at least). Those are worth opposing, and fall under the "peaceful" part of the statement. The effect is to (at least temporarily) cause a war, which has diminished trade. If trade was the only thing anyone cared about, we'd acquiesce to any demand anyone with a boat made. (e.g. Somalian pirates). That's clearly not the stance anyone has here. This is an exercise in good faith. You have to assume there's a consistent set of beliefs that are not crazy that lead to this outcome, or else you fall into the trap of just assuming anyone who disagrees with you is crazy. So, I have not claimed any effect intended or otherwise, only an intent. You can with all love of peace intend to depose a terrorist regime (even violently), and have the effect of disrupting trade. All at once, and all without violating your intent, and from a consistent set of principles about peace, love, and free trade and all that. OK, that's just circling back to my prior comments, so I think we're done here.
- ajross 5mo ago
  > You're ignoring Iran's negative effects on the world, and their increasing harassing of shipping, and their support of Russian wars and terrorist actions throughout the middle east (at least). Literally none of which have been addressed by this ridiculous adventure! In fact that "harassing of shipping" has been amplified immensely, with no apparent recourse on our part except to just surrender and bribe them to open Hormuz again. Again, EVEN ADMITTING YOUR "PRINCIPLE" ARGUMENT IN GOOD FAITH, a correct (!) implementation of that principle would have been not to start slinging bombs around without an exit strategy. Your point amounts to "This would have been a good war if we had won it." But we lost it. So it wasn't.
  - jvanderbot 5mo ago
    > Why did you punch the bully > He was being a bully > But he's still alive!!
    - ajross 5mo ago
      The instinct to treat geopolitics like a schoolyard fight is exactly why we're in this mess[1]! To extend your more-apt-than-you-really-want metaphor: you punched the bully like a moron instead of involving the administration, now you have detention, you'll miss your championship game, you won't get the scholarship you want, you'll have to adjust your college plans, and the rest of your career is impacted. You shouldn't have punched the bully. "I was only pursuing a principled stand against bullies" doesn't change that fact. You can be principled and not a moron. [1] To repeat for the third time, because you keep ignoring the point and I suspect it's because of the cognitive dissonance required in this subthread: We Lost The War. Iran Won. They Get Paid. We Get Nothing.

by ajross 5mo ago

jvanderbot 5mo ago

You're ignoring Iran's negative effects on the world, and their increasing harassing of shipping, and their support of Russian wars and terrorist actions throughout the middle east (at least). Those are worth opposing, and fall under the "peaceful" part of the statement. The effect is to (at least temporarily) cause a war, which has diminished trade. If trade was the only thing anyone cared about, we'd acquiesce to any demand anyone with a boat made. (e.g. Somalian pirates). That's clearly not the stance anyone has here. This is an exercise in good faith. You have to assume there's a consistent set of beliefs that are not crazy that lead to this outcome, or else you fall into the trap of just assuming anyone who disagrees with you is crazy. So, I have not claimed any effect intended or otherwise, only an intent. You can with all love of peace intend to depose a terrorist regime (even violently), and have the effect of disrupting trade. All at once, and all without violating your intent, and from a consistent set of principles about peace, love, and free trade and all that. OK, that's just circling back to my prior comments, so I think we're done here.

ajross 5mo ago
> You're ignoring Iran's negative effects on the world, and their increasing harassing of shipping, and their support of Russian wars and terrorist actions throughout the middle east (at least). Literally none of which have been addressed by this ridiculous adventure! In fact that "harassing of shipping" has been amplified immensely, with no apparent recourse on our part except to just surrender and bribe them to open Hormuz again. Again, EVEN ADMITTING YOUR "PRINCIPLE" ARGUMENT IN GOOD FAITH, a correct (!) implementation of that principle would have been not to start slinging bombs around without an exit strategy. Your point amounts to "This would have been a good war if we had won it." But we lost it. So it wasn't.
- jvanderbot 5mo ago
  > Why did you punch the bully > He was being a bully > But he's still alive!!
  - ajross 5mo ago
    The instinct to treat geopolitics like a schoolyard fight is exactly why we're in this mess[1]! To extend your more-apt-than-you-really-want metaphor: you punched the bully like a moron instead of involving the administration, now you have detention, you'll miss your championship game, you won't get the scholarship you want, you'll have to adjust your college plans, and the rest of your career is impacted. You shouldn't have punched the bully. "I was only pursuing a principled stand against bullies" doesn't change that fact. You can be principled and not a moron. [1] To repeat for the third time, because you keep ignoring the point and I suspect it's because of the cognitive dissonance required in this subthread: We Lost The War. Iran Won. They Get Paid. We Get Nothing.