5 ms·

I've heard the Dutch one is is a little better. The ones in the USA aren't likely to do much more than call police to put a mental hold on you, during which th

I've heard the Dutch one is is a little better. The ones in the USA aren't likely to do much more than call police to put a mental hold on you, during which the hospital will rack up so many bills that it would make anyone suicidal. And then yay, your gun rights gone forever, so if you are suicidal in part because you live in a dangerous impoverished shithole good luck defending yourself afterwards!

ceejayoz 5mo ago
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-988-call-the-police-data-suggests-rarely/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-988-call-the-police-data-s... > Many people in mental health crisis fear that if they dial 988, law enforcement might show up or they might be forced to go to the hospital. > But getting sent that kind of "involuntary emergency rescue" happens to around 1% of callers, suggests new data from Vibrant Emotional Health, the administrator of the 988 Lifeline for suicide and mental health crises.
- hilariously 5mo ago
  If anything I did had a 1% chance of involuntary committal I would stop doing that thing immediately.
  - ceejayoz 5mo ago
    Does that include “untreated suicidal ideation”?
    - hilariously 5mo ago
      Yep, as someone who suffers from depression and suicidal ideation regularly its been made very clear to me on multiple occasions that I would rather be in this state than interface with involuntary committal. I don't know what points you are looking to score here.
      - ceejayoz 5mo ago
        I have several loved ones in the same situation, including two who've wound up in hospital in this way. I'm glad they did. Fun? No. But better than dying.
        hilariously 5mo ago
        I get it, I am not advocating to live unmedicated or anything, but pretty much every emergency medical experience I have had any contact with in the USA has been so universally painful and dehumanizing that it gives me extreme pause, I would not willingly engage with it.
        ceejayoz 5mo ago
        I'm fine with someone making that call for themselves with personal experience, although doing it in a sound state of mind can be challenging in crisis. I'd just caution you that it's not a universal experience. As with, say, COVID masking, some people found it abhorrent, and others still voluntarily mask today; some found lockdowns almost fun, others despised even the thought of staying home for a few days. Statistically, police/committment intervention from calling the hotline is rare, and another commenter linked evidence (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48122550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48122550) of significant benefits to balance it.
  - hx8 5mo ago
    I don't think that's the right way to consider your odds of involuntary committal. It really depends on what you say in the calls. The more immediate and serious the danger the more likely you are to be involuntary committed. The caller range is quite large.
    - JohnFen 5mo ago
      So that means you have to watch what you say if you call such a line. That seems risky enough to discourage me from calling if I were in such a state.
      - hx8 5mo ago
        Would you rather not try to help the people that obviously need help?
        randerson 5mo ago
        What if the help they need is just to talk to someone without fear of consequences? If they dispatch you to an institution you could lose your job just when you need money to pay for the bills you'll be sent. With some careers, like being a pilot, you'd never be be to find another job. You'd lose your ability to take out life insurance (even if it was a short temporary depression that you got over, like a side effect of a medication, the life insurance companies won't care.) Or the institution's records could be hacked and you'll live in fear of your friends and family finding out.. which could cause rebound suicidal ideation... There is no way I would ever call these hotlines unless it were 100% anonymous.
        hx8 5mo ago
        > What if the help they need is just to talk to someone without fear of consequences? Is there actually any consequence free conversations? Even Lawyers can break confidentiality in some situations. I'm not saying that the hotline is perfect, I'm saying that it provides a lot of good. I hope you never feel the need to call the hotline, but it's an option that saves a lot of lives.
gowld 5mo ago
You really think that legal prohibition on gun ownership is more a difference in life-and-death due to murder risk than suicide risk?
wholinator2 5mo ago
So from what i understand the only way your gun rights are "gone forever" is if a court ordered you to go to a mental hospital. If it's just a 911 call and a ride to the hospital (every trip to the "grippy sock hotel" I've ever seen), that does not apply and your gun rights are not removed federally. Some states have "red flag" laws but to my understanding those are temporary and end either after a time period or a court petition. I'm curious what laws you're talking about in the US that would take your gun rights for a suicide call.
- mothballed 5mo ago
  Involuntary commitment. Happened to a good friend of mine during a nasty divorce, the husband made up a suicidal story and my friend was committed without the court appointing her a lawyer to defend herself. She's struggling to get her rights back, it is apparently possible, but they're gone forever until you spend a lot of money on lawyers so it's true it's not strictly the case you can't get them back but they default to staying gone forever.
  - mx7zysuj4xew 5mo ago
    Just curious, but did this person have a history of emotional lability plus previous (voluntary) outpatient treatment?
    - aftbit 5mo ago
      This is just another form of stigma. Better to go without getting treated for mental health issues, or that very responsible decision to seek treatment will be used against you later. See also the jump seat pilot who tried to pull the fire handles on a commercial flight.
- cj 5mo ago
  This heavily depends on the state. E.g. NY is not friendly in this scenario depending on the type of permit and the type of hold. An involuntary hold will impact your right to have a gun.
llm_nerd 5mo ago
Seems like one of those situations where damned if they do, damned if they don't, isn't it? Like if someone is in immediate crisis what do you expect them to do? I feel like if someone is calling a line, they are looking for intervention. If someone cries for help and the response is ensuring that someone doesn't fearmonger on Hacker News, I feel like that would be a problem. "And then yay, your gun rights gone forever" Gun owners are much more likely to kill themself with said gun than to ever defend themselves in any way, and anyone who has ideations should be the last person to want a gun. And suicide mostly afflicts white middle-aged males, most of whom don't live in "dangerous impoverished shitholes". I doubt the correlation is more than random.
- cindyllm 5mo ago
  [dead]
iepathos 5mo ago
Gun rights are generally not gone forever. Federal law bars people adjudicated mentally defective or formally committed to a mental institution, neither of which include a temporary mental hold for suicide watch. State laws vary, but none of them have a law where a single temporary hold means "gun rights gone forever." Some states let people go buy a gun the day they are released from suicide watch, despite how irresponsible that sounds.
- mothballed 5mo ago
  The temporary can easily turn into an adjudicated one. Happened to one of my friends during a nasty divorce, the high-IQ husband knew all the buttons to press to the state and kept fabricating to the state that the suicidal ideation was ongoing (it never existed in the first place) and then they committed my friend based on that. He was then successful in getting my friend's ability to defend herself removed so that she would be defenseless.
the_af 5mo ago
> if you are suicidal in part because you live in a dangerous impoverished shithole good luck defending yourself afterwards! Is realistically "gun ownership" a plus in this scenario?
retired 5mo ago
In The Netherlands you can be involuntarily committed to a mental hospital due to risk of suicide, still get a weapons license, buy half a dozen guns and then go on a shooting rampage killing 7 and wounding 17 (Alphen a/d Rijn shooting, 2011).
tosti 5mo ago
They follow a flowchart. Most of it involves trying to figure out if you know any friends or family nearby. I guess finding someone for comfort might make sense, but the flowchart is too obvious and makes it sound like another typical marketing callcenter.
sailfast 5mo ago
This is not a comment on gun rights, but, IF you are having issues with suicide and depression I would absolutely remove those weapons from your house and access. Talk to a friend you trust. Have them stored. Something. Having them nearby is only going to increase the odds you end up dead.

ceejayoz 5mo ago

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-988-call-the-police-data-suggests-rarely/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-988-call-the-police-data-s... > Many people in mental health crisis fear that if they dial 988, law enforcement might show up or they might be forced to go to the hospital. > But getting sent that kind of "involuntary emergency rescue" happens to around 1% of callers, suggests new data from Vibrant Emotional Health, the administrator of the 988 Lifeline for suicide and mental health crises.

hilariously 5mo ago
If anything I did had a 1% chance of involuntary committal I would stop doing that thing immediately.
- ceejayoz 5mo ago
  Does that include “untreated suicidal ideation”?
  - hilariously 5mo ago
    Yep, as someone who suffers from depression and suicidal ideation regularly its been made very clear to me on multiple occasions that I would rather be in this state than interface with involuntary committal. I don't know what points you are looking to score here.
    - ceejayoz 5mo ago
      I have several loved ones in the same situation, including two who've wound up in hospital in this way. I'm glad they did. Fun? No. But better than dying.
      - hilariously 5mo ago
        I get it, I am not advocating to live unmedicated or anything, but pretty much every emergency medical experience I have had any contact with in the USA has been so universally painful and dehumanizing that it gives me extreme pause, I would not willingly engage with it.
        ceejayoz 5mo ago
        I'm fine with someone making that call for themselves with personal experience, although doing it in a sound state of mind can be challenging in crisis. I'd just caution you that it's not a universal experience. As with, say, COVID masking, some people found it abhorrent, and others still voluntarily mask today; some found lockdowns almost fun, others despised even the thought of staying home for a few days. Statistically, police/committment intervention from calling the hotline is rare, and another commenter linked evidence (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48122550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48122550) of significant benefits to balance it.
- hx8 5mo ago
  I don't think that's the right way to consider your odds of involuntary committal. It really depends on what you say in the calls. The more immediate and serious the danger the more likely you are to be involuntary committed. The caller range is quite large.
  - JohnFen 5mo ago
    So that means you have to watch what you say if you call such a line. That seems risky enough to discourage me from calling if I were in such a state.
    - hx8 5mo ago
      Would you rather not try to help the people that obviously need help?
      - randerson 5mo ago
        What if the help they need is just to talk to someone without fear of consequences? If they dispatch you to an institution you could lose your job just when you need money to pay for the bills you'll be sent. With some careers, like being a pilot, you'd never be be to find another job. You'd lose your ability to take out life insurance (even if it was a short temporary depression that you got over, like a side effect of a medication, the life insurance companies won't care.) Or the institution's records could be hacked and you'll live in fear of your friends and family finding out.. which could cause rebound suicidal ideation... There is no way I would ever call these hotlines unless it were 100% anonymous.
        hx8 5mo ago
        > What if the help they need is just to talk to someone without fear of consequences? Is there actually any consequence free conversations? Even Lawyers can break confidentiality in some situations. I'm not saying that the hotline is perfect, I'm saying that it provides a lot of good. I hope you never feel the need to call the hotline, but it's an option that saves a lot of lives.

gowld 5mo ago

You really think that legal prohibition on gun ownership is more a difference in life-and-death due to murder risk than suicide risk?

wholinator2 5mo ago

So from what i understand the only way your gun rights are "gone forever" is if a court ordered you to go to a mental hospital. If it's just a 911 call and a ride to the hospital (every trip to the "grippy sock hotel" I've ever seen), that does not apply and your gun rights are not removed federally. Some states have "red flag" laws but to my understanding those are temporary and end either after a time period or a court petition. I'm curious what laws you're talking about in the US that would take your gun rights for a suicide call.

mothballed 5mo ago
Involuntary commitment. Happened to a good friend of mine during a nasty divorce, the husband made up a suicidal story and my friend was committed without the court appointing her a lawyer to defend herself. She's struggling to get her rights back, it is apparently possible, but they're gone forever until you spend a lot of money on lawyers so it's true it's not strictly the case you can't get them back but they default to staying gone forever.
- mx7zysuj4xew 5mo ago
  Just curious, but did this person have a history of emotional lability plus previous (voluntary) outpatient treatment?
  - aftbit 5mo ago
    This is just another form of stigma. Better to go without getting treated for mental health issues, or that very responsible decision to seek treatment will be used against you later. See also the jump seat pilot who tried to pull the fire handles on a commercial flight.
cj 5mo ago
This heavily depends on the state. E.g. NY is not friendly in this scenario depending on the type of permit and the type of hold. An involuntary hold will impact your right to have a gun.

llm_nerd 5mo ago

Seems like one of those situations where damned if they do, damned if they don't, isn't it? Like if someone is in immediate crisis what do you expect them to do? I feel like if someone is calling a line, they are looking for intervention. If someone cries for help and the response is ensuring that someone doesn't fearmonger on Hacker News, I feel like that would be a problem. "And then yay, your gun rights gone forever" Gun owners are much more likely to kill themself with said gun than to ever defend themselves in any way, and anyone who has ideations should be the last person to want a gun. And suicide mostly afflicts white middle-aged males, most of whom don't live in "dangerous impoverished shitholes". I doubt the correlation is more than random.

cindyllm 5mo ago
[dead]

iepathos 5mo ago

Gun rights are generally not gone forever. Federal law bars people adjudicated mentally defective or formally committed to a mental institution, neither of which include a temporary mental hold for suicide watch. State laws vary, but none of them have a law where a single temporary hold means "gun rights gone forever." Some states let people go buy a gun the day they are released from suicide watch, despite how irresponsible that sounds.

mothballed 5mo ago
The temporary can easily turn into an adjudicated one. Happened to one of my friends during a nasty divorce, the high-IQ husband knew all the buttons to press to the state and kept fabricating to the state that the suicidal ideation was ongoing (it never existed in the first place) and then they committed my friend based on that. He was then successful in getting my friend's ability to defend herself removed so that she would be defenseless.

the_af 5mo ago

> if you are suicidal in part because you live in a dangerous impoverished shithole good luck defending yourself afterwards! Is realistically "gun ownership" a plus in this scenario?

retired 5mo ago

In The Netherlands you can be involuntarily committed to a mental hospital due to risk of suicide, still get a weapons license, buy half a dozen guns and then go on a shooting rampage killing 7 and wounding 17 (Alphen a/d Rijn shooting, 2011).

tosti 5mo ago

They follow a flowchart. Most of it involves trying to figure out if you know any friends or family nearby. I guess finding someone for comfort might make sense, but the flowchart is too obvious and makes it sound like another typical marketing callcenter.

sailfast 5mo ago

This is not a comment on gun rights, but, IF you are having issues with suicide and depression I would absolutely remove those weapons from your house and access. Talk to a friend you trust. Have them stored. Something. Having them nearby is only going to increase the odds you end up dead.