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You just know that engineers and management in Toyota's delusional hydrogen division are salivating.

by voxadam 5mo ago

adrian_b 5mo ago
Nope. Splitting water into free hydrogen and oxygen is important because it is an essential step for using electrical energy in the chemical and metallurgic industries. For long term energy storage, free hydrogen is not a good solution, but it can be used to synthesize hydrocarbons, which are suitable for long term energy storage or for aerospace transportation. Even with abundant and cheap dihydrogen, using it for energy storage in vehicles is a bad idea.
- kshahkshah 5mo ago
  They said “delusional”
- foobarbecue 5mo ago
  How does this refute the comment you replied to? That comment was implying that Toyota Mirai et al are ill-advised, so seems like your "nope" should be a "yep."
  - ssl-3 5mo ago
    Nope. It's important to always appear to be argumentative, even when in agreement.
    - BoxedEmpathy 5mo ago
      Nope. I've noticed this too, even when agreeing lots of comments start with a negative.
      - ssl-3 5mo ago
        Not really. Perhaps it's reflexive.
  - adrian_b 5mo ago
    I agree that it was not the best introduction when that would be seen from the perspective of "ill-advised" companies. What I meant is that for rational companies there would be no reason to be happy about this development, because it does not solve any of the problems that prevent free hydrogen for being suitable for energy storage, especially in vehicles. It is not the cost of generating hydrogen that makes uncompetitive the cars with hydrogen, but difficulties in its storage and transportation. Most of the energy used by living beings also passes through splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen, but the hydrogen is never stored as such, but it is immediately used for synthesizing reduced carbon compounds, which are suitable for long storage and easy to carry by mobile beings. This has been proven in practice for billions of years as a suitable solution for long term energy storage.
hobofan 5mo ago
They are not delusional. Japanese car manufacturers were late to EVs, and in order to prevent a gap in the market where EV-first competitors can steal market share from them, they lobby the government to subsidize and create a new market segment in the form of hydrogen cars. There they have a head start via some latent research and more reuse of ICE car platforms. I'm sure the hydrogen division is well aware that they are doing research on a dead-end technology (at least for the automotive sector). The exact same thing happened in Germany. In 2020 there was a huge push from politicians to push more hydrogen technology to distract from the fact that German car manufacturers were lagging behind, as well as general missed initiatives for renewable energy. Now, 6 years later those initatives are deader than ever.
- UltraSane 5mo ago
  Hydrogen is simply a really bad fuel for cars. It is hard to transport and store liquid hydrogen
  - pfdietz 5mo ago
    They'd use compressed gaseous hydrogen, but that has its own problems.
    - toast0 5mo ago
      Yep... Anyone who looked at how CNG cars went in the US and was like yep, let's do that but with a gas that's harder to transport and store and has no existing network, had to know it wouldn't work out very well. CNG fleet vehicles work out for many fleets; especially those that have vehicle depots where fueling happens. I haven't looked into detail for the hydrogen cars, but I wonder if they made the same kinds of designs with regard to the fuel tanks. On pressurized fuel vehicles, the tanks expire after 15-20 years; on most CNG cars, the tanks take a lot of labor to replace, so most vehicles will expire when their tank does; I suspect the same for the hydrogen cars. Fleet vehicles tend to do a lot of miles, so a time based tank expiration is less of a problem.
      - 5mo ago
boppo1 5mo ago
Can anyone give me a semi-technical reason on why the hydrogen division are delusional? I'm actually convinced of it "osmotically", but I just don't know enough about it. I've got chem 101 behind me but otherwise I'm a finance & tech guy. It would be nice to actually understand why it can't be done though.
- craftkiller 5mo ago
  Assuming we're talking about cars/trucks, one major reason hydrogen doesn't make sense is efficiency: https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/OrLRA/s1/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13.webp https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/OrLRA/s1/efficiency-compar... If we manage to get enough solar such that energy essentially becomes infinite then the inefficiency would no longer matter. Otherwise, it would only make sense in vehicles that require high energy density like airplanes.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 5mo ago
    There is already free energy. In 2024, California curtailed 3400 GWh of solar. Hydrogen is one of the easier ways to load shift that to winter or processes which need something denser than batteries. I actually prefer synthetic methane (worse efficiency) because it is more immediately usable. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65364 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65364
    - craftkiller 5mo ago
      Looking at the charts[0], load shifting all the way to winter seems unnecessary. You only need to load shift until ~6pm, in which case there are plenty of better options out there like grid-scale batteries, flywheels, pumped storage hydro, etc. [0] The 2nd chart on https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2025.05.28/chart2.svg https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2025.05.28/chart2.s...
      - 0cf8612b2e1e 5mo ago
        It depends on your energy mix. The more solar you go, more load shifting is required. Winter solar production is relatively crummy and you need to offset that loss somehow for the entire season. That chart is showing some curtailment in winter because the grid knows to expect less production. It is already tuned to spin up more gas because solar will underperform relative to Summer.

You just know that engineers and management in Toyota's delusional hydrogen division are salivating.

by voxadam 5mo ago

You just know that engineers and management in Toyota's delusional hydrogen division are salivating.

Nope. Splitting water into free hydrogen and oxygen is important because it is an essential step for using electrical energy in the chemical and metallurgic industries. For long term energy storage, free hydrogen is not a good solution, but it can be used to synthesize hydrocarbons, which are suitable for long term energy storage or for aerospace transportation. Even with abundant and cheap dihydrogen, using it for energy storage in vehicles is a bad idea.

kshahkshah 5mo ago
They said “delusional”
foobarbecue 5mo ago
How does this refute the comment you replied to? That comment was implying that Toyota Mirai et al are ill-advised, so seems like your "nope" should be a "yep."
- ssl-3 5mo ago
  Nope. It's important to always appear to be argumentative, even when in agreement.
  - BoxedEmpathy 5mo ago
    Nope. I've noticed this too, even when agreeing lots of comments start with a negative.
    - ssl-3 5mo ago
      Not really. Perhaps it's reflexive.
- adrian_b 5mo ago
  I agree that it was not the best introduction when that would be seen from the perspective of "ill-advised" companies. What I meant is that for rational companies there would be no reason to be happy about this development, because it does not solve any of the problems that prevent free hydrogen for being suitable for energy storage, especially in vehicles. It is not the cost of generating hydrogen that makes uncompetitive the cars with hydrogen, but difficulties in its storage and transportation. Most of the energy used by living beings also passes through splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen, but the hydrogen is never stored as such, but it is immediately used for synthesizing reduced carbon compounds, which are suitable for long storage and easy to carry by mobile beings. This has been proven in practice for billions of years as a suitable solution for long term energy storage.

hobofan 5mo ago

They are not delusional. Japanese car manufacturers were late to EVs, and in order to prevent a gap in the market where EV-first competitors can steal market share from them, they lobby the government to subsidize and create a new market segment in the form of hydrogen cars. There they have a head start via some latent research and more reuse of ICE car platforms. I'm sure the hydrogen division is well aware that they are doing research on a dead-end technology (at least for the automotive sector). The exact same thing happened in Germany. In 2020 there was a huge push from politicians to push more hydrogen technology to distract from the fact that German car manufacturers were lagging behind, as well as general missed initiatives for renewable energy. Now, 6 years later those initatives are deader than ever.

UltraSane 5mo ago
Hydrogen is simply a really bad fuel for cars. It is hard to transport and store liquid hydrogen
- pfdietz 5mo ago
  They'd use compressed gaseous hydrogen, but that has its own problems.
  - toast0 5mo ago
    Yep... Anyone who looked at how CNG cars went in the US and was like yep, let's do that but with a gas that's harder to transport and store and has no existing network, had to know it wouldn't work out very well. CNG fleet vehicles work out for many fleets; especially those that have vehicle depots where fueling happens. I haven't looked into detail for the hydrogen cars, but I wonder if they made the same kinds of designs with regard to the fuel tanks. On pressurized fuel vehicles, the tanks expire after 15-20 years; on most CNG cars, the tanks take a lot of labor to replace, so most vehicles will expire when their tank does; I suspect the same for the hydrogen cars. Fleet vehicles tend to do a lot of miles, so a time based tank expiration is less of a problem.
    - 5mo ago

boppo1 5mo ago

Can anyone give me a semi-technical reason on why the hydrogen division are delusional? I'm actually convinced of it "osmotically", but I just don't know enough about it. I've got chem 101 behind me but otherwise I'm a finance & tech guy. It would be nice to actually understand why it can't be done though.

craftkiller 5mo ago
Assuming we're talking about cars/trucks, one major reason hydrogen doesn't make sense is efficiency: https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/OrLRA/s1/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13.webp https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/OrLRA/s1/efficiency-compar... If we manage to get enough solar such that energy essentially becomes infinite then the inefficiency would no longer matter. Otherwise, it would only make sense in vehicles that require high energy density like airplanes.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 5mo ago
  There is already free energy. In 2024, California curtailed 3400 GWh of solar. Hydrogen is one of the easier ways to load shift that to winter or processes which need something denser than batteries. I actually prefer synthetic methane (worse efficiency) because it is more immediately usable. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65364 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=65364
  - craftkiller 5mo ago
    Looking at the charts[0], load shifting all the way to winter seems unnecessary. You only need to load shift until ~6pm, in which case there are plenty of better options out there like grid-scale batteries, flywheels, pumped storage hydro, etc. [0] The 2nd chart on https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2025.05.28/chart2.svg https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2025.05.28/chart2.s...
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 5mo ago
      It depends on your energy mix. The more solar you go, more load shifting is required. Winter solar production is relatively crummy and you need to offset that loss somehow for the entire season. That chart is showing some curtailment in winter because the grid knows to expect less production. It is already tuned to spin up more gas because solar will underperform relative to Summer.