5 ms·

> ChromeOS is a very competent, fast, and easy-to-use operating system. It also locks you into the cloud services of an advertising company that loves harvesti

by kelnos 6mo ago

> ChromeOS is a very competent, fast, and easy-to-use operating system. It also locks you into the cloud services of an advertising company that loves harvesting your data to help find new ways to sell you things.

noprocrasted 6mo ago
That’s no better than Windows (without a lot of effort and a constant game of cat and mouse only achievable by technical users). At least Google’s cloud services tend to actually be good, if you made peace with the tracking and privacy concerns.
suriya-ganesh 6mo ago
I see this too often. But, realistically users do not care about the harvesting as it is unseen and behind the scenes. Most people just want get stuff done in a competent, fast and easy-to-use operating system. >It also locks you into the cloud services of an advertising company this is pretty much any company these days. microsoft is guilty of the same.
- Forgeties79 6mo ago
  >But, realistically users do not care about the harvesting as it is unseen and behind the scenes. Like them I think I am also surprised not because that isn't the case, but because it's wild to see that take on HN, which skews way more towards privacy/owning your compute.
  - suriya-ganesh 6mo ago
    I've been working in the privacy space for ~4 years now and have worked across, homomorphic encryption, Federated Learning and finetuning. I've also run multiple user studies on privacy during my time doing a master's in privacy at CMU. almost 10/10 times users will choose, easy to use and accessible over complex and more control over their data. In fact, for one of the Mag7 we proved that, users only want to have the feeling of safety and don't really care what gets done with the data. very unfortunate, but this is the world we live in.
- shimman 6mo ago
  Users absolutely care, what a terrible comment. Users have ZERO choice. Tech companies are not regulated, tech companies abuse their monopolies at their users detriment, and tech companies do not have consumer councils to help mitigate these issues. What it actually appears to be is we have a market where undemocratic business leaders are deciding the direction of technology in a country that only seems to benefit them and not the population. What a terrible mindset to have and I sincerely hope you never have any capacity to yield power in your life.
  - mcmcmc 6mo ago
    They do have a choice, they just don’t want to a) pay for anything or b) be cut off online society
    - shimman 6mo ago
      Man you clearly need to talk to people outside of Google. I'm glad the vast majority of Americans hate tech companies and their leaders if this is the mindshare they purport: "you don't have a choice, fuck you." Great attitude that goes well with voters.
      - deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
      - mcmcmc 6mo ago
        How did I not describe a choice? If you don’t want to be tracked and manipulated, don’t drink the free beer. Turn off JavaScript. Pay for a search engine. Run your own mail server. Host your own fediverse node. Accept that life will be harder. Don’t be so naive as to think for profit companies aren’t going to milk everything they can from addicts who can’t quit their “free” services. Go start a co-op or something if you want to change it, but you can’t compete. And the reason is because they offer it for free and hide what you’re really trading for it in the EULA. If you think I’m not mad about it, you’re not reading between the lines. I’m just a realist. This is what Peter Thiel meant by “free email was not enough”.
- turtlebits 6mo ago
  Until your google account gets locked for some unknown reason and you there is 0 support and recourse. And now you can't even log into your own computer.
  - random2021 6mo ago
    The is so rare. Such things can happen even with bank accounts (if you are a foreigner in many countries). If you use your own Ubuntu/Debian or even RMS certified disro same can happen. An upgrade and you see only a xorg blinking cursor.
    - opan 6mo ago
      >If you use your own Ubuntu/Debian or even RMS certified disro same can happen. An upgrade and you see only a xorg blinking cursor. This can be fixed yourself, whether that's hopping into a TTY or having to boot a live environment and chroot in. You aren't at the mercy of some major company's support people. Even without fixing it you should be able to get at the files on the drive for use on another machine, or backing them up if you're gonna reinstall.
      - random2021 6mo ago
        Keep boot live environment? You always carry USB? Learn security. Chroot? You don't learn or understand modern bootc?
    - prepend 6mo ago
      It can’t happen to my macbook. This happened recently to my kid and it was a nightmare of a week trying to resolve it. I’d rather tie my identity to an org with customer service.
      - faust201 6mo ago
        this does not mean anything logical. Billions use android. Some will be affected due to any company or ID etc. Pretty sure you can visit your local apple store and see many people asking for shattered screen or lost iphone. They did lose their accounts. Moreover even if you use macbook - if you lose google or apple ID situation is same. (for the majority) appstore is important. See your comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48111545#48123885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48111545#48123885 you are happy to give everything to iCloud but don't like Google? I can also store all my data in hetzner cloud. Use chromebook only as a hardware. If Google account is blocked then use Guest session. No account needed. Your turn?
- mcmcmc 6mo ago
  They don’t care because they don’t understand, or don’t want to. It’s a scary thing to confront the fact that you are psychologically and demographically profiled so that people can manipulate you to extract as much of your money and attention as possible.
- socalgal2 6mo ago
  So is Apple. Went to the Apple store recently. To buy something they told me scan a QR code. The code popped up "Get Start and Personalize Your Apple Store Visit" and a big button "Share Now" Under the button in small text was a link to "customize" which said they were going to harvest your contact info, your carrier account, your phone model and applecare info, the list of all devices you own, the list of all your subscriptions, your purchase history, your reservation history. They said all of it was for ads (to make more customized recommendations) So much for "Apple = Privacy"
- customguy 6mo ago
  > I see this too often. But, realistically users do not care about the harvesting as it is unseen and behind the scenes. And when it's brought up where people do know, there's always these attempts at gatekeeping by speaking for the average user like a priest would speak for God. The person who asked that cares, and didn't ask "the average, realistic user", because you can't ask an abstract concept questions.
jeroenhd 6mo ago
So does Windows. macOS locks you into a company that hoovers up your data but pinky promises not to sell it and will fight tooth and nail to have prevent others from doing the exact same thing on their operating system. If you care about privacy, Linux and BSDs are the only options, but actually good out-of-the-box Linux laptops are few and far between. Except for Chromebooks, of course.
- retired 6mo ago
  Big difference is that you can use macOS without a user account. Can't do that with Windows without some hidden terminal magic.
  - sneezychl 6mo ago
    MacOS doesn't have to force it, users will gladly sign into their iCloud account. Virtually nobody uses the Windows Store, but the Mac App Store is a necessity given how restricted 3rd party apps are on macOS now.
    - retired 6mo ago
      Since when is the Mac App Store a necessity? It's still possible to download DMGs straight from the internet and install the .app by dragging it to /Applications The only restriction to 3rd party apps are unsigned apps. Very rare these days, mainly small hobby projects. You can still activate them through the System Settings.
    - Marsymars 6mo ago
      Unsigned apps are a pain, but you can have your app signed without being in the macOS App Store. Nearly all my apps are signed and non-App Store. e.g. Homebrew requires Casks be signed, so anything you can install via Homebrew is a single line to install without additional restrictions.
  - Marsymars 6mo ago
    Though if you want to get rid of the persistent nag on your Dock to log in to your Apple account, that's a significantly higher level of magic than what it takes to use Windows without an MS account. (I just installed Windows a week ago without an MS account, and it was a 30 second step during setup to skip an MS account. The steps to get rid of the macOS nag are daunting enough that I just live with it permanently.)
toast0 6mo ago
Apparently you can create a local account on a chrome device [1], although I can't vouch for the process; otherwise cloud auth is tied to Google, yes. You could use a guest account for everything, if your really want; but then you lose out on persistence. But as long as you accept that everything you do is in a browser; which is reality for the vast majority of computer users, there's no real lock-in. You can just as easily use the browser version of Microsoft Office as the browser version of Google Docs. You're certainly locked into Google for the browser and for updates, unless you do a lot of work. But it's been a while since it was common to get commercial OS updates from a 3rd party. [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/how-use-chromebook-without-google-account/ https://www.xda-developers.com/how-use-chromebook-without-go...
serf 6mo ago
wild that we're talking about which OS locks you up more w.r.t an apple product.
array_key_first 6mo ago
Yes, this is true, and I myself am degoogled. Mostly, except YouTube, but I am off Gmail and stuff these days. But, we need to pick our battles. For most people the reality is they have a Google account anyway, and they will log into and sync on any device. So, it makes no difference.
random2021 6mo ago
Does it matter? Your friend using Android or iOS may have typed your exact address, phone, signal id, gps, etc on her Google/apple account. And now? If you fly to use you are giving more info. Are you running your own bank? Pepper are you? What happens when you join job (tons of papers?)

by kelnos 6mo ago

noprocrasted 6mo ago

That’s no better than Windows (without a lot of effort and a constant game of cat and mouse only achievable by technical users). At least Google’s cloud services tend to actually be good, if you made peace with the tracking and privacy concerns.

suriya-ganesh 6mo ago

I see this too often. But, realistically users do not care about the harvesting as it is unseen and behind the scenes. Most people just want get stuff done in a competent, fast and easy-to-use operating system. >It also locks you into the cloud services of an advertising company this is pretty much any company these days. microsoft is guilty of the same.

Forgeties79 6mo ago
>But, realistically users do not care about the harvesting as it is unseen and behind the scenes. Like them I think I am also surprised not because that isn't the case, but because it's wild to see that take on HN, which skews way more towards privacy/owning your compute.
- suriya-ganesh 6mo ago
  I've been working in the privacy space for ~4 years now and have worked across, homomorphic encryption, Federated Learning and finetuning. I've also run multiple user studies on privacy during my time doing a master's in privacy at CMU. almost 10/10 times users will choose, easy to use and accessible over complex and more control over their data. In fact, for one of the Mag7 we proved that, users only want to have the feeling of safety and don't really care what gets done with the data. very unfortunate, but this is the world we live in.
shimman 6mo ago
Users absolutely care, what a terrible comment. Users have ZERO choice. Tech companies are not regulated, tech companies abuse their monopolies at their users detriment, and tech companies do not have consumer councils to help mitigate these issues. What it actually appears to be is we have a market where undemocratic business leaders are deciding the direction of technology in a country that only seems to benefit them and not the population. What a terrible mindset to have and I sincerely hope you never have any capacity to yield power in your life.
- mcmcmc 6mo ago
  They do have a choice, they just don’t want to a) pay for anything or b) be cut off online society
  - shimman 6mo ago
    Man you clearly need to talk to people outside of Google. I'm glad the vast majority of Americans hate tech companies and their leaders if this is the mindshare they purport: "you don't have a choice, fuck you." Great attitude that goes well with voters.
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - mcmcmc 6mo ago
      How did I not describe a choice? If you don’t want to be tracked and manipulated, don’t drink the free beer. Turn off JavaScript. Pay for a search engine. Run your own mail server. Host your own fediverse node. Accept that life will be harder. Don’t be so naive as to think for profit companies aren’t going to milk everything they can from addicts who can’t quit their “free” services. Go start a co-op or something if you want to change it, but you can’t compete. And the reason is because they offer it for free and hide what you’re really trading for it in the EULA. If you think I’m not mad about it, you’re not reading between the lines. I’m just a realist. This is what Peter Thiel meant by “free email was not enough”.
turtlebits 6mo ago
Until your google account gets locked for some unknown reason and you there is 0 support and recourse. And now you can't even log into your own computer.
- random2021 6mo ago
  The is so rare. Such things can happen even with bank accounts (if you are a foreigner in many countries). If you use your own Ubuntu/Debian or even RMS certified disro same can happen. An upgrade and you see only a xorg blinking cursor.
  - opan 6mo ago
    >If you use your own Ubuntu/Debian or even RMS certified disro same can happen. An upgrade and you see only a xorg blinking cursor. This can be fixed yourself, whether that's hopping into a TTY or having to boot a live environment and chroot in. You aren't at the mercy of some major company's support people. Even without fixing it you should be able to get at the files on the drive for use on another machine, or backing them up if you're gonna reinstall.
    - random2021 6mo ago
      Keep boot live environment? You always carry USB? Learn security. Chroot? You don't learn or understand modern bootc?
  - prepend 6mo ago
    It can’t happen to my macbook. This happened recently to my kid and it was a nightmare of a week trying to resolve it. I’d rather tie my identity to an org with customer service.
    - faust201 6mo ago
      this does not mean anything logical. Billions use android. Some will be affected due to any company or ID etc. Pretty sure you can visit your local apple store and see many people asking for shattered screen or lost iphone. They did lose their accounts. Moreover even if you use macbook - if you lose google or apple ID situation is same. (for the majority) appstore is important. See your comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48111545#48123885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48111545#48123885 you are happy to give everything to iCloud but don't like Google? I can also store all my data in hetzner cloud. Use chromebook only as a hardware. If Google account is blocked then use Guest session. No account needed. Your turn?
mcmcmc 6mo ago
They don’t care because they don’t understand, or don’t want to. It’s a scary thing to confront the fact that you are psychologically and demographically profiled so that people can manipulate you to extract as much of your money and attention as possible.
socalgal2 6mo ago
So is Apple. Went to the Apple store recently. To buy something they told me scan a QR code. The code popped up "Get Start and Personalize Your Apple Store Visit" and a big button "Share Now" Under the button in small text was a link to "customize" which said they were going to harvest your contact info, your carrier account, your phone model and applecare info, the list of all devices you own, the list of all your subscriptions, your purchase history, your reservation history. They said all of it was for ads (to make more customized recommendations) So much for "Apple = Privacy"
customguy 6mo ago
> I see this too often. But, realistically users do not care about the harvesting as it is unseen and behind the scenes. And when it's brought up where people do know, there's always these attempts at gatekeeping by speaking for the average user like a priest would speak for God. The person who asked that cares, and didn't ask "the average, realistic user", because you can't ask an abstract concept questions.

jeroenhd 6mo ago

So does Windows. macOS locks you into a company that hoovers up your data but pinky promises not to sell it and will fight tooth and nail to have prevent others from doing the exact same thing on their operating system. If you care about privacy, Linux and BSDs are the only options, but actually good out-of-the-box Linux laptops are few and far between. Except for Chromebooks, of course.

retired 6mo ago
Big difference is that you can use macOS without a user account. Can't do that with Windows without some hidden terminal magic.
- sneezychl 6mo ago
  MacOS doesn't have to force it, users will gladly sign into their iCloud account. Virtually nobody uses the Windows Store, but the Mac App Store is a necessity given how restricted 3rd party apps are on macOS now.
  - retired 6mo ago
    Since when is the Mac App Store a necessity? It's still possible to download DMGs straight from the internet and install the .app by dragging it to /Applications The only restriction to 3rd party apps are unsigned apps. Very rare these days, mainly small hobby projects. You can still activate them through the System Settings.
  - Marsymars 6mo ago
    Unsigned apps are a pain, but you can have your app signed without being in the macOS App Store. Nearly all my apps are signed and non-App Store. e.g. Homebrew requires Casks be signed, so anything you can install via Homebrew is a single line to install without additional restrictions.
- Marsymars 6mo ago
  Though if you want to get rid of the persistent nag on your Dock to log in to your Apple account, that's a significantly higher level of magic than what it takes to use Windows without an MS account. (I just installed Windows a week ago without an MS account, and it was a 30 second step during setup to skip an MS account. The steps to get rid of the macOS nag are daunting enough that I just live with it permanently.)

toast0 6mo ago

Apparently you can create a local account on a chrome device [1], although I can't vouch for the process; otherwise cloud auth is tied to Google, yes. You could use a guest account for everything, if your really want; but then you lose out on persistence. But as long as you accept that everything you do is in a browser; which is reality for the vast majority of computer users, there's no real lock-in. You can just as easily use the browser version of Microsoft Office as the browser version of Google Docs. You're certainly locked into Google for the browser and for updates, unless you do a lot of work. But it's been a while since it was common to get commercial OS updates from a 3rd party. [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/how-use-chromebook-without-google-account/ https://www.xda-developers.com/how-use-chromebook-without-go...

serf 6mo ago

wild that we're talking about which OS locks you up more w.r.t an apple product.

array_key_first 6mo ago

Yes, this is true, and I myself am degoogled. Mostly, except YouTube, but I am off Gmail and stuff these days. But, we need to pick our battles. For most people the reality is they have a Google account anyway, and they will log into and sync on any device. So, it makes no difference.

random2021 6mo ago

Does it matter? Your friend using Android or iOS may have typed your exact address, phone, signal id, gps, etc on her Google/apple account. And now? If you fly to use you are giving more info. Are you running your own bank? Pepper are you? What happens when you join job (tons of papers?)