3 ms·

Great example. But... IDK if this (or other clearly advanced writing systems) demonstrate "refinement of millennia." I think we have a "history is acceleratin

by netcan 5mo ago

Great example. But... IDK if this (or other clearly advanced writing systems) demonstrate "refinement of millennia." I think we have a "history is accelerating" bias. Changes in the deep past happened slowly, and the pace of change increases over time. That may be true from a very broad POV... but I don't think it's true on shorter timescales. There are no hard limitations on going from a newly invented writing system to a professional scribal culture in a single generation. I don't think watershed "revolutions" are something new. Egyptian writing, and Early bronze age egyptian culture more broadly gets very advanced, very quickly. We don't really know what elements have deep histories... but it's hard to explain ancient egypt without allowing for some impressive leaps. Hence aliens. Also... "common ancestor" can be a lot of things. It could be like the gradual species-like philogenetics of cyrillic, latin, hebrew, arabic and all other alphabets' development from proto-sinaitic and canaanite/punic. The same script gradually evolving in different scriptural islands. Otoh... "ancestry" can be pure inspiration. The idea of writing, its uses and the certainty that widespread literacy is possible can be the "dna." The confusing part is that culture does, often, evolve very gradually like species and clades over time. These sometimes leave evidence of the whole process. Sudden explosions can't be deduced from the absence of evidence.

card_zero 5mo ago
Mythology is involved in inhibiting invention. I mean, after inventing invention, the concept of it, you have a certain motivation, which is lacking in a culture that tells stories about how its greatest inventions were stolen from the gods by fantasy heroes. We still indulge in those stories slightly, by mythologizing inventors. But at least we don't have a cyclical concept of time where everything's predestined by the fates, and we all have proper roles and places, and there's no progress except round and round. That's a tranquil outlook, but tends to be self-fulfilling.
- netcan 5mo ago
  I agree. It's just hard to say anything with certainty (or even clarity) about these "mentality" components. A culture's mythology. It's "concept of concepts." It's so vague and abstract that we can't even name it legibly.
onlypassingthru 5mo ago
> The idea of writing, its uses and the certainty that widespread literacy is possible can be the "dna." It's fascinating that over 400 indigenous tribes lived north of the NA desert border between US/Mexico and there is zero evidence a single one had a written language, while the Maya and Aztecs on the other side of the deserts were writing for centuries.
- netcan 5mo ago
  So... zero evidence doesn't mean zero existence. Often it just means lower density. Elamite, Sumerian, Akkadian and other languages of that region were written on clay... which lends very well to mass production and extremely well to preservation. They also had large populations and urban centres. These are all very big multipliers of evidencence. A clay tablet has >1000X more survivability than papyrus, velum or even painted pottery. Meanwhile... there isn't much writing in central and south America either... even when/where population density and urbanism is high. Khipu, knitted strings, are the most common known writing system. There's evidence for the existence of other writing systems... but not much of it. Hence, undeciphered one-offs. You also need to consider that writing has different uses. Most development of literacy examples start with some pretty limited use cases. Writing isn't like fire, instantly useful to everyone everywhere.
  - nephihaha 5mo ago
    I think it is arguable whether quipu is a writing system or not. I remember arguing years ago that it was, when mainstream linguistics argued it was merely mnemonic, because the quipu system reminded me slightly of ogham. Nowadays I think of it as proto-writing. Depending on what you consider South America, and it is a Chilean territory, Easter Island has a mysterious script which seems to have caused endless arguments. The Easter Island system certainly looks like a script, but where it comes from and whether it was invented there is another question. Easter Island isn't near anywhere.
  - onlypassingthru 5mo ago
    All the weapons, pottery, baskets and even clay structures that we've found are missing any sort of writing. Just like ancient peoples of Mesopotamia, somebody could've easily carved something into the clay bricks if they were so inclined but the dna just wasn't there, apparently. There's a 1991 film (and earlier novel) called Black Robe that fictionalizes what it might've been like when the first Jesuit missionaries introduced this powerful black magic to the natives in the 17th century.[0] [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cj_bSkuKVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cj_bSkuKVA

by netcan 5mo ago

card_zero 5mo ago

Mythology is involved in inhibiting invention. I mean, after inventing invention, the concept of it, you have a certain motivation, which is lacking in a culture that tells stories about how its greatest inventions were stolen from the gods by fantasy heroes. We still indulge in those stories slightly, by mythologizing inventors. But at least we don't have a cyclical concept of time where everything's predestined by the fates, and we all have proper roles and places, and there's no progress except round and round. That's a tranquil outlook, but tends to be self-fulfilling.

netcan 5mo ago
I agree. It's just hard to say anything with certainty (or even clarity) about these "mentality" components. A culture's mythology. It's "concept of concepts." It's so vague and abstract that we can't even name it legibly.

onlypassingthru 5mo ago

> The idea of writing, its uses and the certainty that widespread literacy is possible can be the "dna." It's fascinating that over 400 indigenous tribes lived north of the NA desert border between US/Mexico and there is zero evidence a single one had a written language, while the Maya and Aztecs on the other side of the deserts were writing for centuries.

netcan 5mo ago
So... zero evidence doesn't mean zero existence. Often it just means lower density. Elamite, Sumerian, Akkadian and other languages of that region were written on clay... which lends very well to mass production and extremely well to preservation. They also had large populations and urban centres. These are all very big multipliers of evidencence. A clay tablet has >1000X more survivability than papyrus, velum or even painted pottery. Meanwhile... there isn't much writing in central and south America either... even when/where population density and urbanism is high. Khipu, knitted strings, are the most common known writing system. There's evidence for the existence of other writing systems... but not much of it. Hence, undeciphered one-offs. You also need to consider that writing has different uses. Most development of literacy examples start with some pretty limited use cases. Writing isn't like fire, instantly useful to everyone everywhere.
- nephihaha 5mo ago
  I think it is arguable whether quipu is a writing system or not. I remember arguing years ago that it was, when mainstream linguistics argued it was merely mnemonic, because the quipu system reminded me slightly of ogham. Nowadays I think of it as proto-writing. Depending on what you consider South America, and it is a Chilean territory, Easter Island has a mysterious script which seems to have caused endless arguments. The Easter Island system certainly looks like a script, but where it comes from and whether it was invented there is another question. Easter Island isn't near anywhere.
- onlypassingthru 5mo ago
  All the weapons, pottery, baskets and even clay structures that we've found are missing any sort of writing. Just like ancient peoples of Mesopotamia, somebody could've easily carved something into the clay bricks if they were so inclined but the dna just wasn't there, apparently. There's a 1991 film (and earlier novel) called Black Robe that fictionalizes what it might've been like when the first Jesuit missionaries introduced this powerful black magic to the natives in the 17th century.[0] [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cj_bSkuKVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cj_bSkuKVA