5 ms·

This has been almost 2.5 years in the making. The question we started off with was - if there are scales and raagas for music, is there something similar for s

This has been almost 2.5 years in the making. The question we started off with was - if there are scales and raagas for music, is there something similar for storytelling. What goes well after what beat. That took us through a journey. Building Quanten Pulse, which led to Quanten Arc (real data, that led to a model), which then allowed us to create a benchmark database of more than 400 films. So if you breakdown 400 hollywood blockbusters, and break them scene by scene, map emotions and durations, and character arcs, what is the patterns that you see - and if you step back, do you see clusters of patterns that resonate well. Most people in hollywood write stories in two structures - predominantly. It is either Save the Cat, or the Heroes journey. But what if you don't want to save cats or go on the journey? (imagine if someone telling a musician, you have two scales - thats it). We took a peek into the 400 and found 15 different narrative structures that work well. I have a feeling as we expand - into regional cinema, and different formats, we will find more. Tell me what you think : https://arc.quanten.co/archetype https://arc.quanten.co/archetype PS: While we started with Hollywood, we are starting to do this analysis for Bollywood films too (though finding scripts has been difficult)

PunchTornado 5mo ago
Cool. I would go into the european or auteur films. Also Asian films like wkw.
- phaedrus044 5mo ago
  Yep, that's definitely on the list. The only issue that I am battling with is how to take something as a positive signal to build these patterns on. Because if i take the entire universe of films, there is probably every variation of arcs. But some have worked / resonated with audiences and some haven't. The way European Cinema has been funded (predominantly through governments) mean that they do the film circuit and then disappear - and the filmmakers are off to make the next film grant. How do i find the signal to identify whats a good film or not. There was this snide remark that someone in hollywood made where they said, they make movies whereas Europe makes (art) cinema. I havent figured out how to resolve that yet. But yes to korean, japanese films - that's very much on the list.
  - mmooss 5mo ago
    This is all very interesting and I appreciate your commitment to serious research. > How do i find the signal to identify whats a good film or not. What is your the definition of 'good'? Without having that, answering the question of a signal is impossible, of course. Popularity is not necessarily a signal of resonance. It's arguably a consequence of distribution; marketing; appeal to the population of potential movie goers, often thought to be males in their late teens and early 20s going in groups; non-challenging content; etc. Many films considered 'great' have not been popular, which of course is true in many artforms. Also, what matters more in your measurement, a film that resonates a little for many, or one that resonates a lot for few? (Sorry if these questions are answered on the website; it's not loading for me.)
    - phaedrus044 5mo ago
      I apologise. I had to push a quick update on the site since some folks had readability issues. Please do try again - hopefully its working. So curiosity aside, I do keep reminding me what problem am I solving and for whom? Auteurs don't care for anyone's opinions and they don't need the tools nor will pay for it. I definitely do want to study "great" films - not just popular, but films that are timeliness. The next thing on my agenda is to benchmark the WGA 101 Best Screenplays of the 21st century and after that benchmark the WGA 101 Best Screenplays of all time (which starts with Casablanca). Even if there are no users for it, I'd be curious to find out how things have evolved and what stands out. But as a nimble startups, don't think auteurs and art house filmmakers would be customers. And they shouldnt - they should do what they do, and go with their gut.
mdre 5mo ago
Seems like a cool idea but it's kinda hard to tell without seeing a whole movie or two fully broken down into those scale steps. Maybe it's there behind a paywall.
- phaedrus044 5mo ago
  We've made a few of that data fully visible. Try this : http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film (Anora) http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series (The Pitt S01E01)
  - anentropic 5mo ago
    imagine if the text was bright enough to read
    - phaedrus044 5mo ago
      This is a valid feedback. I'll get that fixed right away.
netdevphoenix 5mo ago
Since you asked us to tell you what we think: How do you deal with emotions that only exist (as their own concepts) in certain cultures (saudade in Portugal, hygge in Scandinavia)?
- david-gpu 5mo ago
  I find this notion discombobulating every time it pops up. Just because a particular nuance of an emotion doesn't have its own precise word in the local language, it doesn't mean that the locals don't experience it. Emotions are universal. Even if some hypothetical language has a particular term for an emotion that in English would fall somewhere between "guilt" and "shame", it doesn't mean that English-speakers don't often experience it; they simply lack a term with the exact nuance, because it rarely matters that much, and we can express the idea with the help of a longer sentence.
  - shermantanktop 5mo ago
    If one’s goal is universal appeal, sure. If one’s goal is to capture a very specific time and place and culture, that exact nuance with that name could be very important. Proust spent hundreds of pages in trying to do this sort of thing.
  - netdevphoenix 5mo ago
    > Emotions are universal. they simply lack a term with the exact nuance You are mistaking culture for language here. That's mistake number one. Mistake number two is assuming that a language is merely a purely biological response you can easily map to. Emotions as we conceptualise them, exist in a sociocultural context. You say emotions are universal but, are they? Have you ever experienced what an edo period Samurai was going through after failing his lord? Ever experienced the feeling of passing your rite of passage in an amazonian tribe. No. You can surely interpret those situations through your own lens and experience feelings about your interpretation but that doesn't mean you are feeling what they are feeling. You could have your own interpretation of what falling from a high altitude feels like. It doesn't mean that is going to match the emotion of someone who has actually jumped. Mistake three is assuming that your own cultural context (which you have ignored) has the same emotional interpretation of a situation as any other context. A situation that in a cultural context might elicit feelings of belonging, in another might elicit feelings of entrapment, anxiety or lack of freedom. The very idea that everyone experiences the same emotions is itself a cultural byproduct of a culture that often sees itself as the mirror of the world rather than as an additional perspective of it.
Balgair 5mo ago
Great stuff! I think. First, it's hard to read, it needs a white background with black text and larger font. Second, I know this is aimed at English speaking south Asian/Indian readers, so it's like stepping into a strange new world for me. I do a lot of story structure work and it's really fun to learn about this totally new universe of story structure. I wonder what the cross over will be like when you do 'western' film and media. Third, have you tried translating these monosyllable words (ga, ma, pa, etc) into English? I know that it may not be really possible, as I think you're borrowing from Indian musical traditions that evolved totally separately. But it would be nice to a westerner (eventually!) to have something to work from to try to understand it all. Fourth, it's really dense reading here too. You might want to have a way to tie this to something that the user has already seen as an intro. Just loading us up with data and reading is hard. Maybe try to dissect a film or show or book first? Like maybe have a little button there that we can use to click into something and see what is going on in like a really popular Bollywood film (I have no idea about south Asian media, sorry!)? Then walk the user through how you're dissecting that film. Maybe have some diagrams too. Fifth, why do this? I'm interested in why you all wanted to do this project at all. Is there an 'About' page or something? Great work!
- phaedrus044 5mo ago
  "Have you tried translating these monosyllable words (ga, ma, pa, etc) into English?" There is a toggle on the top that goes from Swaras to Solfrege - which is the western notation for music. There is a floating window now that shows what the mapping is between each register and the note, so that it becomes easier for folks to understand the correlation. "I wonder what the cross over will be like when you do 'western' film and media." All of the 405 films that you see there is Hollywood films. The list of the movies that constitute this data is listed here : http://arc.quanten.co/browse http://arc.quanten.co/browse "You might want to have a way to tie this to something that the user has already seen as an intro." If you want to see how this breaks down, We've put out two sample content - one is Anora (which won the Oscar for Best picture last year) and in terms of TV Shows we have also mapped the Pilot episode of The Pitt (though the data used for the analysis was only films) you can access the complete breakdown for the film and series here: http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series "I'm interested in why you all wanted to do this project at all." I used to host a filmmakers club in my open floor office for a few years and used to listen to filmmakers talking about how they make films. While I come from the software world where everything can be A/B tested and there is a beta, test, feedback, iterate, release cycle, it felt odd that films lack any of it - and it is pretty much a hit or miss. And unlike software, you don't get a chance to re-release a film. And the lack of any meaningful audience data and structure data, felt like a huge gap - one that artistic sectors like music and culinary arts have quite well bridged, but the visual story telling world hasnt. That's where the wheels started to churn - that was almost 11 years ago.

PunchTornado 5mo ago

Cool. I would go into the european or auteur films. Also Asian films like wkw.

phaedrus044 5mo ago
Yep, that's definitely on the list. The only issue that I am battling with is how to take something as a positive signal to build these patterns on. Because if i take the entire universe of films, there is probably every variation of arcs. But some have worked / resonated with audiences and some haven't. The way European Cinema has been funded (predominantly through governments) mean that they do the film circuit and then disappear - and the filmmakers are off to make the next film grant. How do i find the signal to identify whats a good film or not. There was this snide remark that someone in hollywood made where they said, they make movies whereas Europe makes (art) cinema. I havent figured out how to resolve that yet. But yes to korean, japanese films - that's very much on the list.
- mmooss 5mo ago
  This is all very interesting and I appreciate your commitment to serious research. > How do i find the signal to identify whats a good film or not. What is your the definition of 'good'? Without having that, answering the question of a signal is impossible, of course. Popularity is not necessarily a signal of resonance. It's arguably a consequence of distribution; marketing; appeal to the population of potential movie goers, often thought to be males in their late teens and early 20s going in groups; non-challenging content; etc. Many films considered 'great' have not been popular, which of course is true in many artforms. Also, what matters more in your measurement, a film that resonates a little for many, or one that resonates a lot for few? (Sorry if these questions are answered on the website; it's not loading for me.)
  - phaedrus044 5mo ago
    I apologise. I had to push a quick update on the site since some folks had readability issues. Please do try again - hopefully its working. So curiosity aside, I do keep reminding me what problem am I solving and for whom? Auteurs don't care for anyone's opinions and they don't need the tools nor will pay for it. I definitely do want to study "great" films - not just popular, but films that are timeliness. The next thing on my agenda is to benchmark the WGA 101 Best Screenplays of the 21st century and after that benchmark the WGA 101 Best Screenplays of all time (which starts with Casablanca). Even if there are no users for it, I'd be curious to find out how things have evolved and what stands out. But as a nimble startups, don't think auteurs and art house filmmakers would be customers. And they shouldnt - they should do what they do, and go with their gut.

mdre 5mo ago

Seems like a cool idea but it's kinda hard to tell without seeing a whole movie or two fully broken down into those scale steps. Maybe it's there behind a paywall.

phaedrus044 5mo ago
We've made a few of that data fully visible. Try this : http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film (Anora) http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series (The Pitt S01E01)
- anentropic 5mo ago
  imagine if the text was bright enough to read
  - phaedrus044 5mo ago
    This is a valid feedback. I'll get that fixed right away.

netdevphoenix 5mo ago

Since you asked us to tell you what we think: How do you deal with emotions that only exist (as their own concepts) in certain cultures (saudade in Portugal, hygge in Scandinavia)?

david-gpu 5mo ago
I find this notion discombobulating every time it pops up. Just because a particular nuance of an emotion doesn't have its own precise word in the local language, it doesn't mean that the locals don't experience it. Emotions are universal. Even if some hypothetical language has a particular term for an emotion that in English would fall somewhere between "guilt" and "shame", it doesn't mean that English-speakers don't often experience it; they simply lack a term with the exact nuance, because it rarely matters that much, and we can express the idea with the help of a longer sentence.
- shermantanktop 5mo ago
  If one’s goal is universal appeal, sure. If one’s goal is to capture a very specific time and place and culture, that exact nuance with that name could be very important. Proust spent hundreds of pages in trying to do this sort of thing.
- netdevphoenix 5mo ago
  > Emotions are universal. they simply lack a term with the exact nuance You are mistaking culture for language here. That's mistake number one. Mistake number two is assuming that a language is merely a purely biological response you can easily map to. Emotions as we conceptualise them, exist in a sociocultural context. You say emotions are universal but, are they? Have you ever experienced what an edo period Samurai was going through after failing his lord? Ever experienced the feeling of passing your rite of passage in an amazonian tribe. No. You can surely interpret those situations through your own lens and experience feelings about your interpretation but that doesn't mean you are feeling what they are feeling. You could have your own interpretation of what falling from a high altitude feels like. It doesn't mean that is going to match the emotion of someone who has actually jumped. Mistake three is assuming that your own cultural context (which you have ignored) has the same emotional interpretation of a situation as any other context. A situation that in a cultural context might elicit feelings of belonging, in another might elicit feelings of entrapment, anxiety or lack of freedom. The very idea that everyone experiences the same emotions is itself a cultural byproduct of a culture that often sees itself as the mirror of the world rather than as an additional perspective of it.

Balgair 5mo ago

Great stuff! I think. First, it's hard to read, it needs a white background with black text and larger font. Second, I know this is aimed at English speaking south Asian/Indian readers, so it's like stepping into a strange new world for me. I do a lot of story structure work and it's really fun to learn about this totally new universe of story structure. I wonder what the cross over will be like when you do 'western' film and media. Third, have you tried translating these monosyllable words (ga, ma, pa, etc) into English? I know that it may not be really possible, as I think you're borrowing from Indian musical traditions that evolved totally separately. But it would be nice to a westerner (eventually!) to have something to work from to try to understand it all. Fourth, it's really dense reading here too. You might want to have a way to tie this to something that the user has already seen as an intro. Just loading us up with data and reading is hard. Maybe try to dissect a film or show or book first? Like maybe have a little button there that we can use to click into something and see what is going on in like a really popular Bollywood film (I have no idea about south Asian media, sorry!)? Then walk the user through how you're dissecting that film. Maybe have some diagrams too. Fifth, why do this? I'm interested in why you all wanted to do this project at all. Is there an 'About' page or something? Great work!

phaedrus044 5mo ago
"Have you tried translating these monosyllable words (ga, ma, pa, etc) into English?" There is a toggle on the top that goes from Swaras to Solfrege - which is the western notation for music. There is a floating window now that shows what the mapping is between each register and the note, so that it becomes easier for folks to understand the correlation. "I wonder what the cross over will be like when you do 'western' film and media." All of the 405 films that you see there is Hollywood films. The list of the movies that constitute this data is listed here : http://arc.quanten.co/browse http://arc.quanten.co/browse "You might want to have a way to tie this to something that the user has already seen as an intro." If you want to see how this breaks down, We've put out two sample content - one is Anora (which won the Oscar for Best picture last year) and in terms of TV Shows we have also mapped the Pilot episode of The Pitt (though the data used for the analysis was only films) you can access the complete breakdown for the film and series here: http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/film http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series http://arc.quanten.co/showcase/series "I'm interested in why you all wanted to do this project at all." I used to host a filmmakers club in my open floor office for a few years and used to listen to filmmakers talking about how they make films. While I come from the software world where everything can be A/B tested and there is a beta, test, feedback, iterate, release cycle, it felt odd that films lack any of it - and it is pretty much a hit or miss. And unlike software, you don't get a chance to re-release a film. And the lack of any meaningful audience data and structure data, felt like a huge gap - one that artistic sectors like music and culinary arts have quite well bridged, but the visual story telling world hasnt. That's where the wheels started to churn - that was almost 11 years ago.