5 ms·

Yeah! I can't believe people know basics about cartels, trusts and dumping.

by motbus3 5mo ago

WalterBright 5mo ago
Except gmail is hardly a cartel, etc. I've never had a gmail account.
- s1mplicissimus 5mo ago
  I'd assume that you also never tried running your own email server and have the email actually delivered to a gmail address, then.
  - WalterBright 5mo ago
    That did work for decades up until recently. It took me a bit to realize that google email recipients had stopped receiving my emails.
    - motbus3 5mo ago
      They basically force yourself to register to their service go allow your emails to be possibly analyzed. It takes dozens or hundreds of emails to warm up a single self hosted email account
  - vel0city 5mo ago
    I've self-hosted email systems for businesses for nearly 20 years. I've actually had far easier times delivering to Gmail/Workspace clients than Outlook. Outlook constantly breaks strict DKIM with some of their protection scanning nonsense for emails that seem to get good deliverability almost everywhere else.
    - BenjiWiebe 5mo ago
      Exactly. Outlook is the main source of deliverability headaches.
      - expedition32 5mo ago
        Isn't that a good thing? I'm quite happy with Outlook filtering out trash.
        vel0city 5mo ago
        No. It will do things when shuffling the email through its various scanner platforms that will make their systems think the original sender is outlook's systems. So then when their later downstream service looks at the email it's like "cool an email from Outlook, let's see if Outlook is allowed to send for this domain...hmm...seems like outlook isn't allowed to send and I'm supposed to reject emails coming from unapproved senders so rejected!" The way it sometimes bounces emails around in their own systems lead to them sometimes mixing up who actually originally sent the message. This causes all kinds of problems and seems entirely unique to their crappy setup.
        BenjiWiebe 5mo ago
        In our case, we're a small business, and we don't do email marketing. So I'd say that anything of ours that gets dropped by Outlook isn't trash. The only non-hand-typed email we send are transactional - actually transactional as in "here's your invoice" or "here's you're tracking number". You know, you could achieve 100% spam filtering by just deleting every email. You wouldn't see any spam at all!
  - drnick1 5mo ago
    I self-host an email server and can definitely send email to Gmail addresses.
  - ranger_danger 5mo ago
    Been doing it for over 20 years without issue, for myself and many other customers.
  - account42 5mo ago
    YMMV but I never had issues with Gmail accepting mail from my personal server. And I didn't even do anything Gmail-specific, just standard SPF+DKIM and making sure my server is not an open relay etc. Microsoft on the other hand...
  - mapt 5mo ago
    We needed a stamp. Regulated "Emails cost 1 penny" would have worked fine. All you need to do to meaningfully fight spam is have a cost that isn't completely negligible; Spammers started out at a rate where they spend less than a day's wages to message literally every human being on the planet; At those costs even finding a single person you can convince of your Nigerian prince account nets you a profit. We controlled the pipes and the formats in the 90's and 00's almost unilaterally. We should have made a stamp.
idle_zealot 5mo ago
It does feel like a lot of very intelligent people here basically start at a first principles belief in property rights, and discover or dispute all of the rights and protections put in place over centuries to patch up the issues that occur when that philosophy meets reality. It reflects poorly on our education systems that these apparently weren't covered or were unconvincing when presented. Or maybe it's just a reflection of the era? In practice organizations seem to be repealing these protections through limited interpretations or loopholes, so maybe that skews people's expectations?
- donkyrf 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - idle_zealot 5mo ago
    That our education system wasn't resilient to that well-funded propaganda machine is what reflects poorly on it. That such a machine is allowed to exist reflects poorly on our institutions more broadly. I'll never blame human greed. Systems are designed for humans, if they fail to account for human nature then they're bad systems. I'm not really interested in litigating whether humans as a species are bad.
    - Barrin92 5mo ago
      >Systems are designed for humans They also happen to be designed by humans, and if you're just begging to have the system fix people's beliefs about corporate greed for you but don't think people themselves are at fault I have no idea why you'd think the systems would be fixed. Always these complains about corporations or systems or institutions, the responsible person is never "I". If you're unwilling to take responsibility for your institutions why do you think they'd fix your problems? The beauty is people always get the institutions and rulers they deserve, it's not some mysterious system that allows these things to happen, it's you and I.
      - idle_zealot 5mo ago

Yeah! I can't believe people know basics about cartels, trusts and dumping.

by motbus3 5mo ago

Yeah! I can't believe people know basics about cartels, trusts and dumping.

WalterBright 5mo ago

Except gmail is hardly a cartel, etc. I've never had a gmail account.

s1mplicissimus 5mo ago
I'd assume that you also never tried running your own email server and have the email actually delivered to a gmail address, then.
- WalterBright 5mo ago
  That did work for decades up until recently. It took me a bit to realize that google email recipients had stopped receiving my emails.
  - motbus3 5mo ago
    They basically force yourself to register to their service go allow your emails to be possibly analyzed. It takes dozens or hundreds of emails to warm up a single self hosted email account
- vel0city 5mo ago
  I've self-hosted email systems for businesses for nearly 20 years. I've actually had far easier times delivering to Gmail/Workspace clients than Outlook. Outlook constantly breaks strict DKIM with some of their protection scanning nonsense for emails that seem to get good deliverability almost everywhere else.
  - BenjiWiebe 5mo ago
    Exactly. Outlook is the main source of deliverability headaches.
    - expedition32 5mo ago
      Isn't that a good thing? I'm quite happy with Outlook filtering out trash.
      - vel0city 5mo ago
        No. It will do things when shuffling the email through its various scanner platforms that will make their systems think the original sender is outlook's systems. So then when their later downstream service looks at the email it's like "cool an email from Outlook, let's see if Outlook is allowed to send for this domain...hmm...seems like outlook isn't allowed to send and I'm supposed to reject emails coming from unapproved senders so rejected!" The way it sometimes bounces emails around in their own systems lead to them sometimes mixing up who actually originally sent the message. This causes all kinds of problems and seems entirely unique to their crappy setup.
      - BenjiWiebe 5mo ago
        In our case, we're a small business, and we don't do email marketing. So I'd say that anything of ours that gets dropped by Outlook isn't trash. The only non-hand-typed email we send are transactional - actually transactional as in "here's your invoice" or "here's you're tracking number". You know, you could achieve 100% spam filtering by just deleting every email. You wouldn't see any spam at all!
- drnick1 5mo ago
  I self-host an email server and can definitely send email to Gmail addresses.
- ranger_danger 5mo ago
  Been doing it for over 20 years without issue, for myself and many other customers.
- account42 5mo ago
  YMMV but I never had issues with Gmail accepting mail from my personal server. And I didn't even do anything Gmail-specific, just standard SPF+DKIM and making sure my server is not an open relay etc. Microsoft on the other hand...
- mapt 5mo ago
  We needed a stamp. Regulated "Emails cost 1 penny" would have worked fine. All you need to do to meaningfully fight spam is have a cost that isn't completely negligible; Spammers started out at a rate where they spend less than a day's wages to message literally every human being on the planet; At those costs even finding a single person you can convince of your Nigerian prince account nets you a profit. We controlled the pipes and the formats in the 90's and 00's almost unilaterally. We should have made a stamp.

idle_zealot 5mo ago

It does feel like a lot of very intelligent people here basically start at a first principles belief in property rights, and discover or dispute all of the rights and protections put in place over centuries to patch up the issues that occur when that philosophy meets reality. It reflects poorly on our education systems that these apparently weren't covered or were unconvincing when presented. Or maybe it's just a reflection of the era? In practice organizations seem to be repealing these protections through limited interpretations or loopholes, so maybe that skews people's expectations?

donkyrf 5mo ago
[flagged]
- idle_zealot 5mo ago
  That our education system wasn't resilient to that well-funded propaganda machine is what reflects poorly on it. That such a machine is allowed to exist reflects poorly on our institutions more broadly. I'll never blame human greed. Systems are designed for humans, if they fail to account for human nature then they're bad systems. I'm not really interested in litigating whether humans as a species are bad.
  - Barrin92 5mo ago
    >Systems are designed for humans They also happen to be designed by humans, and if you're just begging to have the system fix people's beliefs about corporate greed for you but don't think people themselves are at fault I have no idea why you'd think the systems would be fixed. Always these complains about corporations or systems or institutions, the responsible person is never "I". If you're unwilling to take responsibility for your institutions why do you think they'd fix your problems? The beauty is people always get the institutions and rulers they deserve, it's not some mysterious system that allows these things to happen, it's you and I.
    - idle_zealot 5mo ago