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Wholesale population displacement is explicitly not (by itself) genocide under the convention. Genocide is an intent crime, and the intent has to be the eradica

by tptacek 6mo ago

Wholesale population displacement is explicitly not (by itself) genocide under the convention. Genocide is an intent crime, and the intent has to be the eradication of the targeted ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. Kidnapping all the children in an occupied territory and dispersing them so they can't be returned to their families is genocidal. Mass displacement isn't. The fixation on the term "genocide" has been a major own-goal for advocates of Palestinians. It was deliberately defined to be a difficult bar to clear. "Warm crimes" and "ethnic cleansing" are easy claims to make in the region, and ordinary people don't care about the distinction between "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide"; that term would have served just as well, without the escape hatch "genocide" provides.

_alternator_ 6mo ago
So... "statements from leaders that suggest genocidal intent" ... meets the genocide bar, yes? I'll just quote wikipedia: The Gaza genocide is the ongoing,[19][20] intentional, and systematic destruction of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip carried out by Israel during the Gaza war. It encompasses mass killings, deliberate starvation, infliction of serious bodily and mental harm, and prevention of births. Other acts include blockading, destroying civilian infrastructure, destroying healthcare facilities, killing healthcare workers and aid-seekers, causing mass forced displacement, committing sexual violence, and destroying educational, religious, and cultural sites.[21] The genocide has been recognised by a United Nations special committee[22] and commission of inquiry,[21] the International Association of Genocide Scholars,[23][24] multiple human rights groups,[c] state governments, numerous genocide studies and international law scholars,[30][31] and other experts.[32] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
- tptacek 6mo ago
  There are certainly people involved in the Israeli government that have expressed genocidal intent. The problem is that you can say that about basically every state in the world. It can't be the case that the moment a state commits an ethnically-targeted war crime it is per se committing genocide because you can find someone in the majority, the opposition, or the administrative state that has embraced genocidal logic. The logic has to animate the whole conflict. You've rattled off a list of war crimes, many of which I agree with you about unreservedly, all of which are colorable. I don't think there's much doubt about the impact of Israel's post-October-7 policy on Gazans. But so long as you remained fixed on the term "genocide", you'll forever be arguing with opponents who, at least in the current trajectory of the conflict, have the better side of the legal argument.
  - _alternator_ 6mo ago
    I'm no genocide expert, but it does seem like legal scholars who _are_ genocide experts agree that the facts here seem to clearly meet the bar. The people who you credit with "hav[ing] the better side of the legal argument" do not seem, from my vantage, to be arguing in good faith. They are trying to bog us down in semantics when a truly horrifying crime is happening, and saying that we can't call a horse a horse is not helping. I'll also say this: I greatly sympathize with Israel and Jews more generally here. The problem at the core remains global antisemitism; it's the reason Israel needed (and still needs!) to exist, and the reason Jews globally feel threatened. Antisemitism in the middle east is particularly pernicious, but it's not much better in Europe or the Americas. It doesn't just feel like a dangerous wolrd for Jews, it _is_ a dangerous world. That doesn't change my opinion about the situation in Gaza---there's ample evidence that it's a genocide. But I hope this helps people see that we can, and should, hold these two truths at once. Jews are persecuted, and are in a precarious situation globally. In fear and in anguish, the state of Israel is performing unconscionable deeds in Gaza. A central cause is antisemitism; if we could somehow find a solution to that, you'd go a long way towards solving the whole conflict in the middle east. But good luck.
    - tptacek 6mo ago
      Really the only thing that moved me to comment here, besides message board vulnerability amplified by waiting for a Rust compile run to finish, was the implication upthread that mass displacement of populations was genocidal. The rest of it I don't think there's enough daylight between us to debate usefully.
      - Hikikomori 6mo ago
        Pretty disingenuous to pretend that's the only thing that was listed.
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - rbanffy 6mo ago
lorecore 6mo ago
> The fixation on the term "genocide" has been a major own-goal for advocates of Palestinians While I, and many others think that Israel is committing genocide, this is not an "own-goal". The only people playing semantics here are Zionists who are staunchly pro-Israel.
- tptacek 6mo ago
  I think you're going to find that "everybody who does not agree with me on the precise particulars of my conclusions is foursquare in league with my opponents" is not the winning strategy it might feel like here.
  - lorecore 6mo ago
    It was you who made the claim that identifying Israel's actions as a genocide (as agreed upon by many genocide experts and international organizations) was an "own-goal". That is to say that by your logic, if you feel that Israel is committing genocide, you should keep quiet about it because you may turn some mythical constituency into a pro-Israel position by simply stating that opinion.
    - tptacek 6mo ago
      I don't think the pro-Israel position is "mythical", but I can imagine that if you go out of your way to stay in spaces that affirm your own beliefs it probably does feel that way.
      - lorecore 6mo ago
        I didn't say that the pro-Israel position is mythical. I said that no one became pro-Israel because people are saying that Israel is committing genocide. They were pro-Israel to start and just use that as a rhetorical device to try to get people to stop saying Israel is committing genocide.
- mhb 6mo ago
  What do you mean by "Zionists"?
pcthrowaway 6mo ago
> and the intent has to be the eradication of the targeted ethnic, national, racial, or religious group Your use of the word "eradication" suggests total annihilation, but genocide refers to the destruction of such a targeted group in whole or in part. You might argue that this can be vague and would allow any ethnic cleansing to be described as a genocide; in fact this is a point of contention among genocide scholars. Certainly we'd both agree that Israel as a whole is carrying out at least partial destruction of the Palestinian people residing in Palestine, and that many Israeli politicians are calling for total or near-total destruction, many IDF soldiers conduct themselves accordingly, and their military actions involve indiscriminate killing/maiming often enough that there is a strong case their eventual goal is total or near-total destruction. Put another way, there is no compelling argument that Israel conducts itself, in its extensive operations in Gaza/West Bank, with any goal of Palestinians eventually living freely there.

by tptacek 6mo ago

_alternator_ 6mo ago

So... "statements from leaders that suggest genocidal intent" ... meets the genocide bar, yes? I'll just quote wikipedia: The Gaza genocide is the ongoing,[19][20] intentional, and systematic destruction of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip carried out by Israel during the Gaza war. It encompasses mass killings, deliberate starvation, infliction of serious bodily and mental harm, and prevention of births. Other acts include blockading, destroying civilian infrastructure, destroying healthcare facilities, killing healthcare workers and aid-seekers, causing mass forced displacement, committing sexual violence, and destroying educational, religious, and cultural sites.[21] The genocide has been recognised by a United Nations special committee[22] and commission of inquiry,[21] the International Association of Genocide Scholars,[23][24] multiple human rights groups,[c] state governments, numerous genocide studies and international law scholars,[30][31] and other experts.[32] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

tptacek 6mo ago
There are certainly people involved in the Israeli government that have expressed genocidal intent. The problem is that you can say that about basically every state in the world. It can't be the case that the moment a state commits an ethnically-targeted war crime it is per se committing genocide because you can find someone in the majority, the opposition, or the administrative state that has embraced genocidal logic. The logic has to animate the whole conflict. You've rattled off a list of war crimes, many of which I agree with you about unreservedly, all of which are colorable. I don't think there's much doubt about the impact of Israel's post-October-7 policy on Gazans. But so long as you remained fixed on the term "genocide", you'll forever be arguing with opponents who, at least in the current trajectory of the conflict, have the better side of the legal argument.
- _alternator_ 6mo ago
  I'm no genocide expert, but it does seem like legal scholars who _are_ genocide experts agree that the facts here seem to clearly meet the bar. The people who you credit with "hav[ing] the better side of the legal argument" do not seem, from my vantage, to be arguing in good faith. They are trying to bog us down in semantics when a truly horrifying crime is happening, and saying that we can't call a horse a horse is not helping. I'll also say this: I greatly sympathize with Israel and Jews more generally here. The problem at the core remains global antisemitism; it's the reason Israel needed (and still needs!) to exist, and the reason Jews globally feel threatened. Antisemitism in the middle east is particularly pernicious, but it's not much better in Europe or the Americas. It doesn't just feel like a dangerous wolrd for Jews, it _is_ a dangerous world. That doesn't change my opinion about the situation in Gaza---there's ample evidence that it's a genocide. But I hope this helps people see that we can, and should, hold these two truths at once. Jews are persecuted, and are in a precarious situation globally. In fear and in anguish, the state of Israel is performing unconscionable deeds in Gaza. A central cause is antisemitism; if we could somehow find a solution to that, you'd go a long way towards solving the whole conflict in the middle east. But good luck.
  - tptacek 6mo ago
    Really the only thing that moved me to comment here, besides message board vulnerability amplified by waiting for a Rust compile run to finish, was the implication upthread that mass displacement of populations was genocidal. The rest of it I don't think there's enough daylight between us to debate usefully.
    - Hikikomori 6mo ago
      Pretty disingenuous to pretend that's the only thing that was listed.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - rbanffy 6mo ago

lorecore 6mo ago

> The fixation on the term "genocide" has been a major own-goal for advocates of Palestinians While I, and many others think that Israel is committing genocide, this is not an "own-goal". The only people playing semantics here are Zionists who are staunchly pro-Israel.

tptacek 6mo ago
I think you're going to find that "everybody who does not agree with me on the precise particulars of my conclusions is foursquare in league with my opponents" is not the winning strategy it might feel like here.
- lorecore 6mo ago
  It was you who made the claim that identifying Israel's actions as a genocide (as agreed upon by many genocide experts and international organizations) was an "own-goal". That is to say that by your logic, if you feel that Israel is committing genocide, you should keep quiet about it because you may turn some mythical constituency into a pro-Israel position by simply stating that opinion.
  - tptacek 6mo ago
    I don't think the pro-Israel position is "mythical", but I can imagine that if you go out of your way to stay in spaces that affirm your own beliefs it probably does feel that way.
    - lorecore 6mo ago
      I didn't say that the pro-Israel position is mythical. I said that no one became pro-Israel because people are saying that Israel is committing genocide. They were pro-Israel to start and just use that as a rhetorical device to try to get people to stop saying Israel is committing genocide.
mhb 6mo ago
What do you mean by "Zionists"?

pcthrowaway 6mo ago

> and the intent has to be the eradication of the targeted ethnic, national, racial, or religious group Your use of the word "eradication" suggests total annihilation, but genocide refers to the destruction of such a targeted group in whole or in part. You might argue that this can be vague and would allow any ethnic cleansing to be described as a genocide; in fact this is a point of contention among genocide scholars. Certainly we'd both agree that Israel as a whole is carrying out at least partial destruction of the Palestinian people residing in Palestine, and that many Israeli politicians are calling for total or near-total destruction, many IDF soldiers conduct themselves accordingly, and their military actions involve indiscriminate killing/maiming often enough that there is a strong case their eventual goal is total or near-total destruction. Put another way, there is no compelling argument that Israel conducts itself, in its extensive operations in Gaza/West Bank, with any goal of Palestinians eventually living freely there.