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> Even today, I generally assume that my phone could be tapped; even when talking with my trusted work colleagues, friends, and family. I'm extra careful about

> Even today, I generally assume that my phone could be tapped; even when talking with my trusted work colleagues, friends, and family. I'm extra careful about dirty jokes or "grey morality" in video conferences and email. This is horrifying. Why do you feel the necessity to self-censor? What consequences do you anticipate?

jkingsman 6mo ago
Adding on to this question, do you anticipate the same people capable of tapping phones to think less of you for a dirty joke? The people whose opinion of me would lower for something off-color and the people who possess the ability to wiretap me are a disjoint set lol.
- dnnddidiej 6mo ago
  The point is it would be usable against you, but at the point you are wiretapped and can be used in court all bets are off you are probably in too much trouble may as well tell the joke!
  - jkingsman 6mo ago
    yeah exactly haha; the threat model implies a level of "you're hosed" that something private I'd say to a friend isn't moving the needle on.
Kirby64 6mo ago
It's a good policy, generally. Treat anything written down, email, etc, as something that could become public later. Anything that could be recorded and saved for later can be used against you if it's taken the wrong way. A questionable joke could become an HR complaint, as an example.
some_random 6mo ago
Have you missed the last decade and a half of people having their lives ruined by social media mobs for minor slights?
- skinfaxi 6mo ago
  By their friends or government agents recording telephone conversations where they say an off-color joke?
BeetleB 6mo ago
Not the person who said this, but it's easy: Grow up in a country where the government listening in is common (without any transparent due process), and it becomes second nature. And then add to that how easy it is to record phone conversations with today's phones (I've done it), it's easier on the brain to assume it's being recorded as opposed to wondering if it is. But yes, I don't care about my dirty jokes being recorded :-) Illegal activity? Sure. But I solve that problem by not doing illegal things.
- elzbardico 6mo ago
  Not necessarily. Snowden has proven the US intelligence agencies can basically intercept anyone's electronic communications, and that they do this is a giant scale. And yet, we still see comments of people horrified when you said you assume as default that someone (or more likley, something) is listening. The normalcy bias is too strong.
  - skinfaxi 6mo ago
    I'm not horrified that they think someone is listening, the horror was from them self censoring out of fear of surveillance.
    - elzbardico 6mo ago
      I apologize for mis-reading you. but, being careful with this stuff can't hurt. Well, yes, it can hurt the society, but keep you safe from the powers that be.
moduspol 6mo ago
"Anticipate" is strong. Even the mere possibility of something bad happening, even if unlikely, is probably enough to outweigh the positives. In this case, that's just "saying things of grey morality in recorded settings." My primary worry would be things being taken out of context when circumstances change later. Maybe there's lawsuit discovery, or maybe you have a falling out with a coworker who tries to defame you. The last thing you want is a motivated adversary to be given access to a wide trove of things that could be reframed to be used against you. And it's not just off-color jokes or insensitive comments. At one job, we had a project that involved "fudging" billable numbers for a completely legitimate purpose. I was the one insisting that we don't use that term in writing at all to avoid any potential future misunderstandings. Call it an "adjustment" or "algorithmic modification" or something, but not "fudging" or "fabricating." Same kind of reasoning.
waterheater 6mo ago
Consider Person A, who is self-interested and may use a secret recording against you, even if you're following all rules and acting ethically. Additionally, consider if Person A is neutral but shares the recording with Person B, who unbeknownst to Person A, is actually out to get you.
chinabot 6mo ago
Why bother, if the bad actors was that good it could just make up the conversation using your voice and AI.
gwbas1c 6mo ago
Because the vast majority of things I self-censor I'm very careful about where and when I discuss it... And I make a point of seeing the people I care about face to face.

jkingsman 6mo ago

Adding on to this question, do you anticipate the same people capable of tapping phones to think less of you for a dirty joke? The people whose opinion of me would lower for something off-color and the people who possess the ability to wiretap me are a disjoint set lol.

dnnddidiej 6mo ago
The point is it would be usable against you, but at the point you are wiretapped and can be used in court all bets are off you are probably in too much trouble may as well tell the joke!
- jkingsman 6mo ago
  yeah exactly haha; the threat model implies a level of "you're hosed" that something private I'd say to a friend isn't moving the needle on.

Kirby64 6mo ago

It's a good policy, generally. Treat anything written down, email, etc, as something that could become public later. Anything that could be recorded and saved for later can be used against you if it's taken the wrong way. A questionable joke could become an HR complaint, as an example.

some_random 6mo ago

Have you missed the last decade and a half of people having their lives ruined by social media mobs for minor slights?

skinfaxi 6mo ago
By their friends or government agents recording telephone conversations where they say an off-color joke?

BeetleB 6mo ago

Not the person who said this, but it's easy: Grow up in a country where the government listening in is common (without any transparent due process), and it becomes second nature. And then add to that how easy it is to record phone conversations with today's phones (I've done it), it's easier on the brain to assume it's being recorded as opposed to wondering if it is. But yes, I don't care about my dirty jokes being recorded :-) Illegal activity? Sure. But I solve that problem by not doing illegal things.

elzbardico 6mo ago
Not necessarily. Snowden has proven the US intelligence agencies can basically intercept anyone's electronic communications, and that they do this is a giant scale. And yet, we still see comments of people horrified when you said you assume as default that someone (or more likley, something) is listening. The normalcy bias is too strong.
- skinfaxi 6mo ago
  I'm not horrified that they think someone is listening, the horror was from them self censoring out of fear of surveillance.
  - elzbardico 6mo ago
    I apologize for mis-reading you. but, being careful with this stuff can't hurt. Well, yes, it can hurt the society, but keep you safe from the powers that be.

moduspol 6mo ago

"Anticipate" is strong. Even the mere possibility of something bad happening, even if unlikely, is probably enough to outweigh the positives. In this case, that's just "saying things of grey morality in recorded settings." My primary worry would be things being taken out of context when circumstances change later. Maybe there's lawsuit discovery, or maybe you have a falling out with a coworker who tries to defame you. The last thing you want is a motivated adversary to be given access to a wide trove of things that could be reframed to be used against you. And it's not just off-color jokes or insensitive comments. At one job, we had a project that involved "fudging" billable numbers for a completely legitimate purpose. I was the one insisting that we don't use that term in writing at all to avoid any potential future misunderstandings. Call it an "adjustment" or "algorithmic modification" or something, but not "fudging" or "fabricating." Same kind of reasoning.

waterheater 6mo ago

Consider Person A, who is self-interested and may use a secret recording against you, even if you're following all rules and acting ethically. Additionally, consider if Person A is neutral but shares the recording with Person B, who unbeknownst to Person A, is actually out to get you.

chinabot 6mo ago

Why bother, if the bad actors was that good it could just make up the conversation using your voice and AI.

gwbas1c 6mo ago

Because the vast majority of things I self-censor I'm very careful about where and when I discuss it... And I make a point of seeing the people I care about face to face.