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Corruption. A taboo topic people prefer to downvote and pretend it does not exist. But even bigger problem is that institutions designed to prevent this from h

Corruption. A taboo topic people prefer to downvote and pretend it does not exist. But even bigger problem is that institutions designed to prevent this from happening are not doing their job. Thousands security service and civil servants take their wages and look the other way.

kyleee 5mo ago
No doubt there is corruption; but it’s also momentum. There aren’t stable and good alternatives for so many reasons so the duopoly has momentum
- varispeed 5mo ago
  I understand, but this is a national security matter. The focus should be on developing matching domestic capability.
  - cyanydeez 5mo ago
    you know that domestic capability means putting taxes to take things into a public good and corporations and paranoia are the bigger problem to overcome than anything technical. Any endevour will be cast as some kind of fascist takeover of governance.
    - bornfreddy 5mo ago
      Well no, there is no need to develop domestic capability. Put laws in effect which disable foreign capabilities and which reward domestic ones, and they will be developed. No endeavor from government needed (which is a good thing, since governments are not really great at doing such stuff).
      - cyanydeez 5mo ago
        Well yes, just because you think it's a public good worth competing over doesn't mean there's anyone who thinks it's a viable business model.
microtonal 5mo ago
The EU does regulate Google and Apple through the DSA and the DMA. I don't think most EU politicians are corrupted by these companies. I think it is far more likely that it is a lack of knowledge and incompetence. I am pretty sure that the majority of Parliament members, Council members and maybe even Commission members do not even know that there are viable alternatives outside Google (certified) Android and iOS. So they try to regulate their app stores, etc. instead. I hope that with digital sovereignty becoming more important, there will be more interer in alternative mobile operating systems.
- palata 5mo ago
  > I think it is far more likely that it is a lack of knowledge and incompetence. I agree with that. Reading HN comments, where people are supposed to be generally tech-savvy, I see a ton of "lack of knowledge and incompetence" (not in a negative way, just "uninformed"). Why should politicians know better than the average tech-savvy person? But politicians get yelled at by everybody, saying everything and its contrary, while the tech-savvy people can comfortably take a condescending tone explain why "being so stupid is impossible so it has to be corruption".
  - soraminazuki 5mo ago
    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. After Snowden, there's absolutely no reason to believe that governments "accidentally" push for policies that strengthen surveillance and control over our digital lives. It's ridiculous to believe in the goodwill of those in power when these kinds of proposals are made over and over again despite strong pushback.
    - palata 5mo ago
      What I find ridiculous is to strongly believe that politicians are somehow all the same person, and therefore either all corrupt, or all fascists, or all... In a functioning democracy, politicians represent the people. Meaning that some politicians will be on one end of the spectrum, and some will be on the other. If there are no politicians you disagree with, then probably you are not living in a functioning democracy. > despite strong pushback That is my point: look at the pushback! It's many people with very different opinions saying everything and its contrary, with a lot of technically incorrect takes. Do you realise that when you say "they must be corrupt, because they don't share my opinion, and my opinion is absolutely the best", and you are not the only one saying that, then either everybody saying it should share your opinion or at least some of you are wrong, right? Everybody wants to believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong, and therefore everybody else is either stupid or corrupt. I want to believe that sometimes, the world is actually nuanced, and people may have different opinions. I may have a strong opinion (and knowledge) about hardware attestation, but it doesn't mean that every politician does and hence has to be corrupt in order to not agree with me.
armada651 5mo ago
I think it's actively harmful to your own cause when you suggest corruption without any evidence. Just because politicians don't take action on an issue you think is important doesn't mean they're corrupt. It's more likely that the issue you think is important is simply not important to most voters. Suggesting politicians are corrupt without any evidence will make that worse. If people think their politicians are corrupt they will further disengage with the political process, which will ensure there's even less pressure on politicians to take action on niche issues like this.
- EmbarrassedHelp 5mo ago
  The EU Commission was caught breaking the law in order to lobby for Chat Control: https://noyb.eu/en/gdpr-complaint-against-x-twitter-over-illegal-micro-targeting-chat-control-ads https://noyb.eu/en/gdpr-complaint-against-x-twitter-over-ill... The EU Commission also gave a foreign tech company called Thorn (they pretend to be a charity), special access to government officials: https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-eu-for-more-surveillance/ https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-ho... I think both of those cases would be examples of lobbying and corruption.
  - surgical_fire 5mo ago
    The thing is that "The EU commission" is an entity composed os politicians, appointed by member states. It's little coincidence that national governments want Chat Control (laundering that through EU), and the EU parliament is the entity that shots it down (coincidentally the entity that is most beholden to the public). It would be nice to learn which comissioners are lobbying for it.
  - armada651 5mo ago
    Neither examples are evidence of corruption. That doesn't mean they're not problematic, but there's no evidence here of a politician receiving a kickback for any of these actions.
    - 5mo ago
fidotron 5mo ago
> Thousands security service and civil servants take their wages and look the other way. Diplomatic status tax free too.
epistasis 5mo ago
Who is doing this corruption? If it's Apple or Google let us know in the US because we have laws to go after them for acting corruptly in other countries. Vaguely asserting corruption without specifics or even naming the perpetrators isn't "taboo", it's just poor form and silly. Letting such vague accusations float without evidence, motive, or even people to blame, leads to nothing good, and only vague distrust, which itself enables corruption. It leads to people believing there's no way to know the truth, therefore helplessness, and results in fascism like in Russia. Lazy cynicism is itself a form of corruption of one's own mind.
- bryan_w 5mo ago
  > Lazy cynicism is itself a form of corruption of one's own mind I love this way of thinking. I might use this quote down the road
II2II 5mo ago
It's more of a case of the boy who cried wolf than it is of denial. Too many people see something they don't like, imply a nefarious motivation without evidence, then expect everyone to agree that it is corruption. If there is corruption, show the evidence. Otherwise, be honest and state that you don't agree with something. If you want to persuade people, back up your claims with verifiable evidence without falling back to nebulous claims of corruption.

kyleee 5mo ago

No doubt there is corruption; but it’s also momentum. There aren’t stable and good alternatives for so many reasons so the duopoly has momentum

varispeed 5mo ago
I understand, but this is a national security matter. The focus should be on developing matching domestic capability.
- cyanydeez 5mo ago
  you know that domestic capability means putting taxes to take things into a public good and corporations and paranoia are the bigger problem to overcome than anything technical. Any endevour will be cast as some kind of fascist takeover of governance.
  - bornfreddy 5mo ago
    Well no, there is no need to develop domestic capability. Put laws in effect which disable foreign capabilities and which reward domestic ones, and they will be developed. No endeavor from government needed (which is a good thing, since governments are not really great at doing such stuff).
    - cyanydeez 5mo ago
      Well yes, just because you think it's a public good worth competing over doesn't mean there's anyone who thinks it's a viable business model.

microtonal 5mo ago

The EU does regulate Google and Apple through the DSA and the DMA. I don't think most EU politicians are corrupted by these companies. I think it is far more likely that it is a lack of knowledge and incompetence. I am pretty sure that the majority of Parliament members, Council members and maybe even Commission members do not even know that there are viable alternatives outside Google (certified) Android and iOS. So they try to regulate their app stores, etc. instead. I hope that with digital sovereignty becoming more important, there will be more interer in alternative mobile operating systems.

palata 5mo ago
> I think it is far more likely that it is a lack of knowledge and incompetence. I agree with that. Reading HN comments, where people are supposed to be generally tech-savvy, I see a ton of "lack of knowledge and incompetence" (not in a negative way, just "uninformed"). Why should politicians know better than the average tech-savvy person? But politicians get yelled at by everybody, saying everything and its contrary, while the tech-savvy people can comfortably take a condescending tone explain why "being so stupid is impossible so it has to be corruption".
- soraminazuki 5mo ago
  Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. After Snowden, there's absolutely no reason to believe that governments "accidentally" push for policies that strengthen surveillance and control over our digital lives. It's ridiculous to believe in the goodwill of those in power when these kinds of proposals are made over and over again despite strong pushback.
  - palata 5mo ago
    What I find ridiculous is to strongly believe that politicians are somehow all the same person, and therefore either all corrupt, or all fascists, or all... In a functioning democracy, politicians represent the people. Meaning that some politicians will be on one end of the spectrum, and some will be on the other. If there are no politicians you disagree with, then probably you are not living in a functioning democracy. > despite strong pushback That is my point: look at the pushback! It's many people with very different opinions saying everything and its contrary, with a lot of technically incorrect takes. Do you realise that when you say "they must be corrupt, because they don't share my opinion, and my opinion is absolutely the best", and you are not the only one saying that, then either everybody saying it should share your opinion or at least some of you are wrong, right? Everybody wants to believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong, and therefore everybody else is either stupid or corrupt. I want to believe that sometimes, the world is actually nuanced, and people may have different opinions. I may have a strong opinion (and knowledge) about hardware attestation, but it doesn't mean that every politician does and hence has to be corrupt in order to not agree with me.

armada651 5mo ago

I think it's actively harmful to your own cause when you suggest corruption without any evidence. Just because politicians don't take action on an issue you think is important doesn't mean they're corrupt. It's more likely that the issue you think is important is simply not important to most voters. Suggesting politicians are corrupt without any evidence will make that worse. If people think their politicians are corrupt they will further disengage with the political process, which will ensure there's even less pressure on politicians to take action on niche issues like this.

EmbarrassedHelp 5mo ago
The EU Commission was caught breaking the law in order to lobby for Chat Control: https://noyb.eu/en/gdpr-complaint-against-x-twitter-over-illegal-micro-targeting-chat-control-ads https://noyb.eu/en/gdpr-complaint-against-x-twitter-over-ill... The EU Commission also gave a foreign tech company called Thorn (they pretend to be a charity), special access to government officials: https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-eu-for-more-surveillance/ https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-ho... I think both of those cases would be examples of lobbying and corruption.
- surgical_fire 5mo ago
  The thing is that "The EU commission" is an entity composed os politicians, appointed by member states. It's little coincidence that national governments want Chat Control (laundering that through EU), and the EU parliament is the entity that shots it down (coincidentally the entity that is most beholden to the public). It would be nice to learn which comissioners are lobbying for it.
- armada651 5mo ago
  Neither examples are evidence of corruption. That doesn't mean they're not problematic, but there's no evidence here of a politician receiving a kickback for any of these actions.
  - 5mo ago

fidotron 5mo ago

> Thousands security service and civil servants take their wages and look the other way. Diplomatic status tax free too.

epistasis 5mo ago

Who is doing this corruption? If it's Apple or Google let us know in the US because we have laws to go after them for acting corruptly in other countries. Vaguely asserting corruption without specifics or even naming the perpetrators isn't "taboo", it's just poor form and silly. Letting such vague accusations float without evidence, motive, or even people to blame, leads to nothing good, and only vague distrust, which itself enables corruption. It leads to people believing there's no way to know the truth, therefore helplessness, and results in fascism like in Russia. Lazy cynicism is itself a form of corruption of one's own mind.

bryan_w 5mo ago
> Lazy cynicism is itself a form of corruption of one's own mind I love this way of thinking. I might use this quote down the road

II2II 5mo ago

It's more of a case of the boy who cried wolf than it is of denial. Too many people see something they don't like, imply a nefarious motivation without evidence, then expect everyone to agree that it is corruption. If there is corruption, show the evidence. Otherwise, be honest and state that you don't agree with something. If you want to persuade people, back up your claims with verifiable evidence without falling back to nebulous claims of corruption.