4 ms·

Not most of EU but geographically large and diverse and low-latitude countries will. Spain has winds from three different sea areas and is known sunny, so they

Not most of EU but geographically large and diverse and low-latitude countries will. Spain has winds from three different sea areas and is known sunny, so they are in a good position.

joe_mamba 5mo ago
Well that' doesn't always scan. Austria has a lot of wind, sun and hydro so its energy prices should be in line with Sweden, Norway, Denmark amongst the cheapest in Europe, and yet it's routinely amongst the more expensive in the EU.
- ZeroGravitas 5mo ago
  Trading across borders seems to be a part of this story. If your local price is high you can import, if it's low you can export. If you're at the end of a grid and/or your transmission capacity is limited your price has the possibility to go higher or lower without that damping mechanism. Electricitymaps has a pricing layer which seems to show central Europe moving in sync when I randomly check it: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/live/fifteen_minutes?signal=electricity-price https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/live/fifteen_minutes?sig...
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    So energy in Spain is cheap because they produce a lot but can't sell a lot easily, and Austria/Central Europe is expensive because they sell their domestic energy too easily? If this is what you meant, then it sounds like an argument against free trade, if it means you keep ending up with the short stick.
    - ZeroGravitas 5mo ago
      Economists would say that the money coming in outweighs the higher costs and therefore you could redistribute that money and everyone comes out ahead. Whether that happens in real life is a different question.
      - joe_mamba 5mo ago
        >Economists would say that the money coming in Does that money go directly into my pocket so I can afford the more expensive energy? Or does it go into the pocket of private energy companies? Because I feel like there's some faults with this "free market", which is mostly just socializing losses and privatizing profits.
        HPsquared 5mo ago
        And what if the energy companies are owned by foreign investors?
        joe_mamba 5mo ago
        That would be economic colonialism with extra steps. But for the end user, whether you're being ripped off by a local or a foreign energy oligarch, it doesn't really matter, people just want to pay less.
    - HPsquared 5mo ago
      Free trade doesn't always benefit everyone equally, only a net benefit overall. It's a bit like how people often misinterpret the second law of thermodynamics "but the entropy decreased when the ice froze!"
      - joe_mamba 5mo ago
        >Free trade doesn't always benefit everyone equally, only a net benefit overall. Yeah but everyone has an equal right to vote. If they don;'t benefit, why would they agree to get screwed for the "net benefit" of others?
    - ViewTrick1002 5mo ago
      Electricity is expensive in Central Europe because the ETS system (carbon trading) has made fossil based production expensive. We’re right in the middle of the transition with maximum volatility swinging between extremely cheap renewables and expensive fossil plants.
      - MakersF 5mo ago
        I checked and it looks like ETS are increasing prices of gas produced electricity 20-30€/MWh. So not little (although peaks are around 140€/MWh). But these are taxes that can be used to reduce the reliance on gas (actually, it's mandatory to use them for transition projects).
  - tonfa 5mo ago
    And the counter intuitive thing is that people in countries with lots of renewables and not so many external links (e.g. Scandinavia with hydro) might be against adding more links since it will increase electricity prices.
- happosai 5mo ago
  Austria could be there but they would need to build oversupply of solar, wind and (pumped) hydro to saturate the export grid lines. And currently Austria isn't building renewables at scale. I think there is a strong NIMBY movement so the best places to build wind and pumped hydro are blocked...
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    >Austria could be there but they would need to build oversupply of solar, wind and (pumped) hydro to saturate the export grid lines Or, you could reduce the export grid lines. Both have the same effect on supply/demand.

Not most of EU but geographically large and diverse and low-latitude countries will. Spain has winds from three different sea areas and is known sunny, so they are in a good position.

joe_mamba 5mo ago

Well that' doesn't always scan. Austria has a lot of wind, sun and hydro so its energy prices should be in line with Sweden, Norway, Denmark amongst the cheapest in Europe, and yet it's routinely amongst the more expensive in the EU.

ZeroGravitas 5mo ago
Trading across borders seems to be a part of this story. If your local price is high you can import, if it's low you can export. If you're at the end of a grid and/or your transmission capacity is limited your price has the possibility to go higher or lower without that damping mechanism. Electricitymaps has a pricing layer which seems to show central Europe moving in sync when I randomly check it: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/live/fifteen_minutes?signal=electricity-price https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/live/fifteen_minutes?sig...
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  So energy in Spain is cheap because they produce a lot but can't sell a lot easily, and Austria/Central Europe is expensive because they sell their domestic energy too easily? If this is what you meant, then it sounds like an argument against free trade, if it means you keep ending up with the short stick.
  - ZeroGravitas 5mo ago
    Economists would say that the money coming in outweighs the higher costs and therefore you could redistribute that money and everyone comes out ahead. Whether that happens in real life is a different question.
    - joe_mamba 5mo ago
      >Economists would say that the money coming in Does that money go directly into my pocket so I can afford the more expensive energy? Or does it go into the pocket of private energy companies? Because I feel like there's some faults with this "free market", which is mostly just socializing losses and privatizing profits.
      - HPsquared 5mo ago
        And what if the energy companies are owned by foreign investors?
        joe_mamba 5mo ago
        That would be economic colonialism with extra steps. But for the end user, whether you're being ripped off by a local or a foreign energy oligarch, it doesn't really matter, people just want to pay less.
  - HPsquared 5mo ago
    Free trade doesn't always benefit everyone equally, only a net benefit overall. It's a bit like how people often misinterpret the second law of thermodynamics "but the entropy decreased when the ice froze!"
    - joe_mamba 5mo ago
      >Free trade doesn't always benefit everyone equally, only a net benefit overall. Yeah but everyone has an equal right to vote. If they don;'t benefit, why would they agree to get screwed for the "net benefit" of others?
  - ViewTrick1002 5mo ago
    Electricity is expensive in Central Europe because the ETS system (carbon trading) has made fossil based production expensive. We’re right in the middle of the transition with maximum volatility swinging between extremely cheap renewables and expensive fossil plants.
    - MakersF 5mo ago
      I checked and it looks like ETS are increasing prices of gas produced electricity 20-30€/MWh. So not little (although peaks are around 140€/MWh). But these are taxes that can be used to reduce the reliance on gas (actually, it's mandatory to use them for transition projects).
- tonfa 5mo ago
  And the counter intuitive thing is that people in countries with lots of renewables and not so many external links (e.g. Scandinavia with hydro) might be against adding more links since it will increase electricity prices.
happosai 5mo ago
Austria could be there but they would need to build oversupply of solar, wind and (pumped) hydro to saturate the export grid lines. And currently Austria isn't building renewables at scale. I think there is a strong NIMBY movement so the best places to build wind and pumped hydro are blocked...
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  >Austria could be there but they would need to build oversupply of solar, wind and (pumped) hydro to saturate the export grid lines Or, you could reduce the export grid lines. Both have the same effect on supply/demand.