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I'm assuming that they've not been to a "normal" UK carehome now. Its staffed with minimum wage workers who are in perilous conditions, with no support, time o

I'm assuming that they've not been to a "normal" UK carehome now. Its staffed with minimum wage workers who are in perilous conditions, with no support, time or backup. They are cleaning shit a piss all day long, and being shouted at for being foreign by the demented.

chaostheory 5mo ago
I feel that this is the case in most developed countries unless you can afford to pay $10,000 - $20,000 per month for an upscale nursing home. Robots might make it a little less terrible.
- KaiserPro 5mo ago
  I am somewhat sympathetic to this view. I know its not popular. But, given the deficiency of the UK to actually grasp the nettle of adult social care, this is probably what we'll get. A better way, perhaps is better integration of care in the community, as in old people mixed in and around young. (safeguarding issue need to be solved though)
helterskelter 5mo ago
Not much different than the US, really. I had to hire some at-home care for a relative with brain cancer, and almost all of them were drunk on the job, falling asleep when they were supposed to be monitoring at night, or getting offended at something their patient said, who's mental state resembles that of a psychotic 8 year old. Oh and if you don't lock shit up, some of them will steal. At a certain point, you fire so many there aren't any left in the area. I moved my relative to another area for unrelated reasons, but it was the same story at the new place too. There were a few really good ones tbh, but 95% were in private care because nobody else would hire them.
- mindslight 5mo ago
  Did you go through an agency or a private hire? I took care of my dad in his final months during Covid. The hospital gave him Covid and then forcibly discharged him, so none of the agencies wanted to deal with him. I was able to find someone who wanted direct work and who was not daunted by the 'rona. They were fantastic. But of course one person can't do every day or around the clock care. I had another great mother+daughter+third care team lined up for when it was time to ramp up even more (they had taken care of my uncle), but (un)fortunately I never got quite there.
  - helterskelter 5mo ago
    Agencies. I ended up doing private hires, which was a little nerve-wracking since I didn't have somebody doing background checks, etc. One of them was a total scammer who I probably should have reported for fraud, but the others ended up being really good and went above and beyond.
- michaelsmanley 5mo ago
  We just finished a 6-week period where my mother-in-law was cared for at home 24/7 by personal assistants, with three shifts per day. Whole dumb, long story on why we had to do this, and I am very glad it is over (she's in memory care now), but I can say: First, the PAs from the agency who employed them did a better job than we could have. Most of them were current nurses picking up extra money or former nurses who had retired from active work. Save for one who was new to the job and clearly in over her head (and removed from the account after one short shift), they were all competent and conscientious caregivers, if maybe struggling personally one way or another. Not a job anyone chooses to do, I suspect, but one they're often driven to by circumstance. Second, that kind of care is prohibitively expensive long-term. The memory care facility costs 25% to 30% of the in-home care, and is far safer. We got lucky and had access to a smaller facility with a very low resident-to-staff ratio. In the US, at least, I don't see the prospects for this kind of care getting anything but worse. I worry that once the Baby Boomer volume of elders passes through the system, the capital that has swallowed so much of elder care up will pull out and a lot of it will collapse and what survives won't be particularly good or affordable, even compared to current levels.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 5mo ago
[flagged]
ndarray 5mo ago
This framing is ridiculous. Elder abuse and neglect is rampant. Nursing homes are run like prisons and you're empathizing with the guards.
- badgersnake 5mo ago
  So you don’t think any of this is down to not enough staff and poor training?
  - ndarray 5mo ago
    I'm sure there are many systemic issues but the primary victims are the elders. For starters, they don't have a choice but to be there.
    - ambicapter 5mo ago
      To play the devil's advocate, if the issues are systemic, the elders are the ones that have been cultivating that system their whole lives.
- Quarrelsome 5mo ago
  We see this in UK prisons too, because the pay is so low, the work is dangerous and conditions are kinda shit there's now an increasing amount of hybristophiliacs (people attracted to criminals) being found within the service, who start up romantic relationships with prisoners and corrupt the service. It's harder to weed these people out when you're desperate for staff. The solution is to pay these positions well enough to attract people who genuinely believe in the profession. But society optimises away from doing that because there's no obvious ROI outside of making running costs cheaper.
  - ndarray 5mo ago
    Great, and I do agree, we know who to pay more (and who less), but how do we get there democratically? Should we vote for the party that says "we support LGBT and an infinite influx of cheap labor" or the "we support the military and the free market" party?

chaostheory 5mo ago

I feel that this is the case in most developed countries unless you can afford to pay $10,000 - $20,000 per month for an upscale nursing home. Robots might make it a little less terrible.

KaiserPro 5mo ago
I am somewhat sympathetic to this view. I know its not popular. But, given the deficiency of the UK to actually grasp the nettle of adult social care, this is probably what we'll get. A better way, perhaps is better integration of care in the community, as in old people mixed in and around young. (safeguarding issue need to be solved though)

helterskelter 5mo ago

Not much different than the US, really. I had to hire some at-home care for a relative with brain cancer, and almost all of them were drunk on the job, falling asleep when they were supposed to be monitoring at night, or getting offended at something their patient said, who's mental state resembles that of a psychotic 8 year old. Oh and if you don't lock shit up, some of them will steal. At a certain point, you fire so many there aren't any left in the area. I moved my relative to another area for unrelated reasons, but it was the same story at the new place too. There were a few really good ones tbh, but 95% were in private care because nobody else would hire them.

mindslight 5mo ago
Did you go through an agency or a private hire? I took care of my dad in his final months during Covid. The hospital gave him Covid and then forcibly discharged him, so none of the agencies wanted to deal with him. I was able to find someone who wanted direct work and who was not daunted by the 'rona. They were fantastic. But of course one person can't do every day or around the clock care. I had another great mother+daughter+third care team lined up for when it was time to ramp up even more (they had taken care of my uncle), but (un)fortunately I never got quite there.
- helterskelter 5mo ago
  Agencies. I ended up doing private hires, which was a little nerve-wracking since I didn't have somebody doing background checks, etc. One of them was a total scammer who I probably should have reported for fraud, but the others ended up being really good and went above and beyond.
michaelsmanley 5mo ago
We just finished a 6-week period where my mother-in-law was cared for at home 24/7 by personal assistants, with three shifts per day. Whole dumb, long story on why we had to do this, and I am very glad it is over (she's in memory care now), but I can say: First, the PAs from the agency who employed them did a better job than we could have. Most of them were current nurses picking up extra money or former nurses who had retired from active work. Save for one who was new to the job and clearly in over her head (and removed from the account after one short shift), they were all competent and conscientious caregivers, if maybe struggling personally one way or another. Not a job anyone chooses to do, I suspect, but one they're often driven to by circumstance. Second, that kind of care is prohibitively expensive long-term. The memory care facility costs 25% to 30% of the in-home care, and is far safer. We got lucky and had access to a smaller facility with a very low resident-to-staff ratio. In the US, at least, I don't see the prospects for this kind of care getting anything but worse. I worry that once the Baby Boomer volume of elders passes through the system, the capital that has swallowed so much of elder care up will pull out and a lot of it will collapse and what survives won't be particularly good or affordable, even compared to current levels.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 5mo ago

[flagged]

ndarray 5mo ago

This framing is ridiculous. Elder abuse and neglect is rampant. Nursing homes are run like prisons and you're empathizing with the guards.

badgersnake 5mo ago
So you don’t think any of this is down to not enough staff and poor training?
- ndarray 5mo ago
  I'm sure there are many systemic issues but the primary victims are the elders. For starters, they don't have a choice but to be there.
  - ambicapter 5mo ago
    To play the devil's advocate, if the issues are systemic, the elders are the ones that have been cultivating that system their whole lives.
Quarrelsome 5mo ago
We see this in UK prisons too, because the pay is so low, the work is dangerous and conditions are kinda shit there's now an increasing amount of hybristophiliacs (people attracted to criminals) being found within the service, who start up romantic relationships with prisoners and corrupt the service. It's harder to weed these people out when you're desperate for staff. The solution is to pay these positions well enough to attract people who genuinely believe in the profession. But society optimises away from doing that because there's no obvious ROI outside of making running costs cheaper.
- ndarray 5mo ago
  Great, and I do agree, we know who to pay more (and who less), but how do we get there democratically? Should we vote for the party that says "we support LGBT and an infinite influx of cheap labor" or the "we support the military and the free market" party?