3 ms·

Actually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the cultu

Actually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the culture of the organization to suit their ends. Yes the abuse issue is real, but don’t discount the Mormon influence. As a group, they have serious psychiatric issues (the most medicated state in the US by a huge margin) and frequently use dishonesty whenever it suits them (see: Mitt Romney and the caffeine prohibition change).

vintermann 5mo ago
I'm out of the loop on this, what changes did the LDS want?
- quantummagic 5mo ago
  The LDS wanted it to continue to be more of a faith-based organization, and also objected to combining boys and girls together into the same program. Ultimately they left the organization at the end of 2019, taking about 20% of the membership with them.
  - nephihaha 5mo ago
    A lot of Scout groups are church based and not only with the LDS. I have heard that the LDS church got wind of abuse claims within scouting before they hit the mainstream. They have their own abuse scandals just now so probably didn't want to fight that war on two fronts. Either that or cost cutting, which is a major feature of modern Mormonism, except where temple construction is concerned. Scouting hasn't taken off in Mormon churches much outside the USA by the way. Not really in the UK.
  - JuniperMesos 5mo ago
    You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.
    - muwtyhg 5mo ago
      > You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only. Are you going to expand on this at all? What is the value in Scouts being male-only?
      - Henchman21 5mo ago
        Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. LOADS and LOADS of material available to young girls to accomplish this goal. Lots of funding for them too, to become women. Boys? Boys are _disposable_ and get _no investment_. I'll admit this is my personal perspective. I would be happy to be wrong about this but I just don't see it where I am in the Midwest. So I think the value comes from having a male-only space where boys can learn to be men. This is especially true of young men in the throes of puberty where young women are such a huge distraction they cannot even _think straight_. I know this because I got to experience this _first hand_ and it took me many many MANY more years than it would have to integrate my feelings for women into my being or psyche or whatever the word is. For the record I am neither Mormon, nor religious. In fact I wildly far to the left by most assessments. Admittedly I don't fit neatly into other people's labels. What is the value in all programs being mixed gender?
        vintermann 5mo ago
        > Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. Do they? That suggests not only that there's one right way to be a man/woman, and that you'll need to learn it from your peers and not just your parents. I do think there's a point to gender-segregated spaces for kids, but that is because the social dynamics are different. There are some ways a boy can relax when there's only other boys around, and same for girls, and that's probably good for mental health. But you're still a man/woman even if you didn't get that chance and went through your whole childhood worrying what the opposite sex thought of you.
        em-bee 5mo ago
nephihaha 5mo ago
That is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.) There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.
- stavros 5mo ago
  Can't this argument be applied to every group that has more than one member?
AuthorizedCust 5mo ago
The 2020 drop was 1/3 LDS pullout, 1/3 pandemic. The spring membership numbers reveal this. Mid-spring is when the lapsed members from the prior year finally get dropped. Spring 2020 was before the pandemic had any real effect on membership (main recruiting is in the fall), so that is when LDS's withdrawal became apparent. Then spring 2021 is when we see drops and poor recruiting during the pandemic. Since then, membership has been largely flat, possibly declining modestly (hard to read precisely).

vintermann 5mo ago

I'm out of the loop on this, what changes did the LDS want?

quantummagic 5mo ago
The LDS wanted it to continue to be more of a faith-based organization, and also objected to combining boys and girls together into the same program. Ultimately they left the organization at the end of 2019, taking about 20% of the membership with them.
- nephihaha 5mo ago
  A lot of Scout groups are church based and not only with the LDS. I have heard that the LDS church got wind of abuse claims within scouting before they hit the mainstream. They have their own abuse scandals just now so probably didn't want to fight that war on two fronts. Either that or cost cutting, which is a major feature of modern Mormonism, except where temple construction is concerned. Scouting hasn't taken off in Mormon churches much outside the USA by the way. Not really in the UK.
- JuniperMesos 5mo ago
  You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.
  - muwtyhg 5mo ago
    > You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only. Are you going to expand on this at all? What is the value in Scouts being male-only?
    - Henchman21 5mo ago
      Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. LOADS and LOADS of material available to young girls to accomplish this goal. Lots of funding for them too, to become women. Boys? Boys are _disposable_ and get _no investment_. I'll admit this is my personal perspective. I would be happy to be wrong about this but I just don't see it where I am in the Midwest. So I think the value comes from having a male-only space where boys can learn to be men. This is especially true of young men in the throes of puberty where young women are such a huge distraction they cannot even _think straight_. I know this because I got to experience this _first hand_ and it took me many many MANY more years than it would have to integrate my feelings for women into my being or psyche or whatever the word is. For the record I am neither Mormon, nor religious. In fact I wildly far to the left by most assessments. Admittedly I don't fit neatly into other people's labels. What is the value in all programs being mixed gender?
      - vintermann 5mo ago
        > Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. Do they? That suggests not only that there's one right way to be a man/woman, and that you'll need to learn it from your peers and not just your parents. I do think there's a point to gender-segregated spaces for kids, but that is because the social dynamics are different. There are some ways a boy can relax when there's only other boys around, and same for girls, and that's probably good for mental health. But you're still a man/woman even if you didn't get that chance and went through your whole childhood worrying what the opposite sex thought of you.
      - em-bee 5mo ago

nephihaha 5mo ago

That is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.) There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.

stavros 5mo ago
Can't this argument be applied to every group that has more than one member?

AuthorizedCust 5mo ago

The 2020 drop was 1/3 LDS pullout, 1/3 pandemic. The spring membership numbers reveal this. Mid-spring is when the lapsed members from the prior year finally get dropped. Spring 2020 was before the pandemic had any real effect on membership (main recruiting is in the fall), so that is when LDS's withdrawal became apparent. Then spring 2021 is when we see drops and poor recruiting during the pandemic. Since then, membership has been largely flat, possibly declining modestly (hard to read precisely).