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The article gives short shrift to the real real crisis: you need to read 12 paragraphs down to find a casual mention of the "sexual-abuse bankruptcy", which als

The article gives short shrift to the real real crisis: you need to read 12 paragraphs down to find a casual mention of the "sexual-abuse bankruptcy", which also explains the precipitous 2020 collapse in membership in the chart that is prominently shown up top. Turns out parents aren't too keen on sending their kids into camps that have reported 92,000 cases of sexual abuse (and how many cases were not?).

duskwuff 5mo ago
Are you sure that's the only cause? I can think of some other events in 2020 that might have led to a lot of youth dropping out of in-person programs.
6stringmerc 5mo ago
Actually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the culture of the organization to suit their ends. Yes the abuse issue is real, but don’t discount the Mormon influence. As a group, they have serious psychiatric issues (the most medicated state in the US by a huge margin) and frequently use dishonesty whenever it suits them (see: Mitt Romney and the caffeine prohibition change).
- vintermann 5mo ago
  I'm out of the loop on this, what changes did the LDS want?
  - quantummagic 5mo ago
    The LDS wanted it to continue to be more of a faith-based organization, and also objected to combining boys and girls together into the same program. Ultimately they left the organization at the end of 2019, taking about 20% of the membership with them.
    - nephihaha 5mo ago
      A lot of Scout groups are church based and not only with the LDS. I have heard that the LDS church got wind of abuse claims within scouting before they hit the mainstream. They have their own abuse scandals just now so probably didn't want to fight that war on two fronts. Either that or cost cutting, which is a major feature of modern Mormonism, except where temple construction is concerned. Scouting hasn't taken off in Mormon churches much outside the USA by the way. Not really in the UK.
    - JuniperMesos 5mo ago
      You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.
      - muwtyhg 5mo ago
        > You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only. Are you going to expand on this at all? What is the value in Scouts being male-only?
        Henchman21 5mo ago
        Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. LOADS and LOADS of material available to young girls to accomplish this goal. Lots of funding for them too, to become women. Boys? Boys are _disposable_ and get _no investment_. I'll admit this is my personal perspective. I would be happy to be wrong about this but I just don't see it where I am in the Midwest. So I think the value comes from having a male-only space where boys can learn to be men. This is especially true of young men in the throes of puberty where young women are such a huge distraction they cannot even _think straight_. I know this because I got to experience this _first hand_ and it took me many many MANY more years than it would have to integrate my feelings for women into my being or psyche or whatever the word is. For the record I am neither Mormon, nor religious. In fact I wildly far to the left by most assessments. Admittedly I don't fit neatly into other people's labels. What is the value in all programs being mixed gender?
- nephihaha 5mo ago
  That is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.) There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.
  - stavros 5mo ago
    Can't this argument be applied to every group that has more than one member?
- AuthorizedCust 5mo ago
  The 2020 drop was 1/3 LDS pullout, 1/3 pandemic. The spring membership numbers reveal this. Mid-spring is when the lapsed members from the prior year finally get dropped. Spring 2020 was before the pandemic had any real effect on membership (main recruiting is in the fall), so that is when LDS's withdrawal became apparent. Then spring 2021 is when we see drops and poor recruiting during the pandemic. Since then, membership has been largely flat, possibly declining modestly (hard to read precisely).
naijaboiler 5mo ago
i disagree with you. The author is pointing at deeper cultural issue of lack of candor that unaddressed allows things like sexual abuse to flourish. It is an organization that is not willing to tackle serious or face hard things head on. Yeah and their product sucks, so improved marketing won't save it.
- intrasight 5mo ago
  > Its historic advantages—brand recognition, inexpensive outdoor access, and the prestige of Eagle Scout—once masked program defects. I don't think the product sucked at all I think the packaging of that product was terrible. My father took me to a scout meeting when I was 13. Afterwards, he asked if I was interested. I said no - they really come across as Nazi Youth combined with religious fanaticism, and neither appeals to me. I was sad because the product is truly awesome.
  - throwup238 5mo ago
    Same experience except it reminded my dad too much of his time in the Soviet Young Pioneers.
    - raddan 5mo ago
      I was a Scout in four different places growing up. My family moved a lot. My experience (in the 1980s) is that program depended a lot on the priorities of local organizers. Anecdotally, I observed that in communities where Scouting was seen as important—measured by the percentage of children who participated-it was a positive experience. My time as a Boy Scout in Maine was life changing. It was not just about activities and skills (although there were many), it’s clear that the leaders of that Troop saw Scouting as a kind of secular education in ethics and community. They made the various Scouting accomplishments (ranks, merit badges) feel like milestones along a path of self improvement. It felt important. When my family left Maine, the local Troop was weird (the Hitler Youth comment by the earlier poster tracks) and activities consisted of playing checkers in a church basement. In particular, peer bullying of younger/new kids was routine. I lost interest at that point and stopped going. It’s been difficult to follow news of Scouting’s decline for me, because I have seen how positive it CAN be. But perhaps local Troops like this are rare.

duskwuff 5mo ago

Are you sure that's the only cause? I can think of some other events in 2020 that might have led to a lot of youth dropping out of in-person programs.

6stringmerc 5mo ago

Actually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the culture of the organization to suit their ends. Yes the abuse issue is real, but don’t discount the Mormon influence. As a group, they have serious psychiatric issues (the most medicated state in the US by a huge margin) and frequently use dishonesty whenever it suits them (see: Mitt Romney and the caffeine prohibition change).

vintermann 5mo ago
I'm out of the loop on this, what changes did the LDS want?
- quantummagic 5mo ago
  The LDS wanted it to continue to be more of a faith-based organization, and also objected to combining boys and girls together into the same program. Ultimately they left the organization at the end of 2019, taking about 20% of the membership with them.
  - nephihaha 5mo ago
    A lot of Scout groups are church based and not only with the LDS. I have heard that the LDS church got wind of abuse claims within scouting before they hit the mainstream. They have their own abuse scandals just now so probably didn't want to fight that war on two fronts. Either that or cost cutting, which is a major feature of modern Mormonism, except where temple construction is concerned. Scouting hasn't taken off in Mormon churches much outside the USA by the way. Not really in the UK.
  - JuniperMesos 5mo ago
    You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.
    - muwtyhg 5mo ago
      > You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only. Are you going to expand on this at all? What is the value in Scouts being male-only?
      - Henchman21 5mo ago
        Boys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. LOADS and LOADS of material available to young girls to accomplish this goal. Lots of funding for them too, to become women. Boys? Boys are _disposable_ and get _no investment_. I'll admit this is my personal perspective. I would be happy to be wrong about this but I just don't see it where I am in the Midwest. So I think the value comes from having a male-only space where boys can learn to be men. This is especially true of young men in the throes of puberty where young women are such a huge distraction they cannot even _think straight_. I know this because I got to experience this _first hand_ and it took me many many MANY more years than it would have to integrate my feelings for women into my being or psyche or whatever the word is. For the record I am neither Mormon, nor religious. In fact I wildly far to the left by most assessments. Admittedly I don't fit neatly into other people's labels. What is the value in all programs being mixed gender?
nephihaha 5mo ago
That is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.) There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.
- stavros 5mo ago
  Can't this argument be applied to every group that has more than one member?
AuthorizedCust 5mo ago
The 2020 drop was 1/3 LDS pullout, 1/3 pandemic. The spring membership numbers reveal this. Mid-spring is when the lapsed members from the prior year finally get dropped. Spring 2020 was before the pandemic had any real effect on membership (main recruiting is in the fall), so that is when LDS's withdrawal became apparent. Then spring 2021 is when we see drops and poor recruiting during the pandemic. Since then, membership has been largely flat, possibly declining modestly (hard to read precisely).

naijaboiler 5mo ago

i disagree with you. The author is pointing at deeper cultural issue of lack of candor that unaddressed allows things like sexual abuse to flourish. It is an organization that is not willing to tackle serious or face hard things head on. Yeah and their product sucks, so improved marketing won't save it.

intrasight 5mo ago
> Its historic advantages—brand recognition, inexpensive outdoor access, and the prestige of Eagle Scout—once masked program defects. I don't think the product sucked at all I think the packaging of that product was terrible. My father took me to a scout meeting when I was 13. Afterwards, he asked if I was interested. I said no - they really come across as Nazi Youth combined with religious fanaticism, and neither appeals to me. I was sad because the product is truly awesome.
- throwup238 5mo ago
  Same experience except it reminded my dad too much of his time in the Soviet Young Pioneers.
  - raddan 5mo ago
    I was a Scout in four different places growing up. My family moved a lot. My experience (in the 1980s) is that program depended a lot on the priorities of local organizers. Anecdotally, I observed that in communities where Scouting was seen as important—measured by the percentage of children who participated-it was a positive experience. My time as a Boy Scout in Maine was life changing. It was not just about activities and skills (although there were many), it’s clear that the leaders of that Troop saw Scouting as a kind of secular education in ethics and community. They made the various Scouting accomplishments (ranks, merit badges) feel like milestones along a path of self improvement. It felt important. When my family left Maine, the local Troop was weird (the Hitler Youth comment by the earlier poster tracks) and activities consisted of playing checkers in a church basement. In particular, peer bullying of younger/new kids was routine. I lost interest at that point and stopped going. It’s been difficult to follow news of Scouting’s decline for me, because I have seen how positive it CAN be. But perhaps local Troops like this are rare.