4 ms·

It doesn't matter what her charge was. Even (alleged/suspected) serial murderers and rapists should be treated humanely and not experience psychological tortur

by kelnos 6mo ago

It doesn't matter what her charge was. Even (alleged/suspected) serial murderers and rapists should be treated humanely and not experience psychological torture. And also remember this treatment is at the point where they haven't been charged with anything, haven't been tried in court, and haven't been convicted. The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. And it's designed for one thing: high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence.

nihonde 6mo ago
[flagged]
- saagarjha 6mo ago
  You're not really doing a great job selling the country, that's for sure.
  - nihonde 5mo ago
    As if that was ever the goal. Japan is plenty popular.
- fzeroracer 6mo ago
  The charges were dropped. Regardless of your opinions on how an orderly government or justice system should run or how criminals should be treated, in this situation what happened was an innocent person was tortured by the state.
  - pjjpo 6mo ago
    Even if you actually rape someone, if you settle with the victim jb cash, the charges are dropped. Something that really needs to change but seems to not be going so well. Not saying that's what happened in this case by any ways, just that dropped charges = innocent isn't true. And I agree with the OP that knowing the context would help sympathize, especially given usually someone innocent would share that more proactively. Instead, many are even assuming this is something about foreigners, with absolutely no basis to assume that...
  - nihonde 5mo ago
    Charges were dropped does not mean innocent. It means the investigation determined that the case wasn't worth pursuing. Japan has strict rules about importing drugs. The lack of drug abuse in Japan is one of the reasons it's not a shithole like nearly everywhere else. Obviously foreigners are in the crosshairs for that particular category of transgressions, since they come from places with different attitudes toward certain drugs, and since they get sent stuff in the mail. You can be pretty sure that she got the message that the Japanese authorities wanted to send her.
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
- bradchris 6mo ago
  You clearly have a different view of “innocent until proven guilty” than most US citizens, which is fine, maybe you aren’t one, but that line of rhetoric is going to be anathema to most people on this website. Not that the US criminal system isn’t its own complete mess, but thank God for the concept of bail (going about your life outside of jail until trial or dismissal, within certain parameters) and right to see a judge within 24 hours, to avoid any kafkaesque nightmares like this.
  - EA-3167 6mo ago
    > You clearly have a different view of “innocent until proven guilty” Most people don't really understand it, and even the ones who do often have personal exceptions driven by emotion. The idea that you need to defend the guilty to protect the innocent is alien to a lot of people. Japan takes the lack of that assumption a step further though, since it's a society based on strict compliance to cultural norms... for better and for worse. Having said all of that, most of these systems do a credible job of distinguishing the innocent from the guilty, although there's always more to do on that front. If you've ever worked anywhere near the court system you start to notice that people who make it through the system all of the way to a trial are frequently guilty and even more frequently recidivist. Most people aren't criminals and never commit a serious offense, but speaking for myself I don't think the "sorting" the system does has to be anywhere close to as brutal and impersonal as it often is in many countries including Japan.
    - bradchris 6mo ago
      Primarily the US’s approach is: “we know our system will never be perfect [and the system we have is actually a hell of its own making], so we will ensure an escape hatch for BOTH innocent/guilty from the shortcomings of the system until a definitive verdict has been reached” While Japan’s/many other countries approach is: “We intend our court system to be a perfect representation of our culture, history, and policy objectives. Therefore it should apply in every case, regardless of individual circumstance, so there is no escape hatch, because why deviate from a perfect process.” The former is how you get the wildly inconsistent US approach to the criminal system, while the latter is how you get a kafkaesque nightmare (or worse, a system weaponized to intentionally target innocent undesirables, like El Salvador’s CECOT) Both are simplified, none are perfect, of course. But I know which system I’d rather be accused under.
- EA-3167 6mo ago
  If the only way that Japan can be clean and orderly is by abusing people for months at a time only to drop charges, you have to ask if maybe that's a problem. The conviction rate and reliance on often questionably obtained confessions is also a problem that's hardly only noticed by outsiders.
  - Tor3 6mo ago
    The short version of the Japanese justice system is "Guilty until proved innocent", instead of (as in most modern countries) "Innocent until proved guilty". In addition to that, focus is much more on confessions instead of investigation - the latter exists of course, and is used for finding the culprit (as happened when we had a burglary at our house. They got the guy one year later). When someone is in custody though.. then it's about getting a confession. This can definitely be problematic, particularly when considering the conditions during custody. No lawyer.. or much of anything, except massive psychological pressure.
    - Tor3 6mo ago
      And today I read an article in a Japanese newspaper about an innocent woman who was detained for two years, because an interpreter translated a word incorrectly. And, apparently, deliberately. It finally went to court after two years (one must wonder how this is possible..) and was aquitted (with a comment that translation is supposed to be accurate and faithful). In the same article it was described how interpreters would believe that their job was to extract a confession. Recently an organization is trying to educate interpreters in ethics and what an interpreter's job actually is - to translate, and only translate.
  - nihonde 5mo ago
    Have you visited literally any city outside Japan or Singapore lately? Law and order works, whether you like it or not. They're allowed to do it their way. Results speak for themselves.
- roenxi 6mo ago
  Going by the article the authorities in Japan decided that she didn't need an official punishment, so in this case they don't seem to think it matters what her charge was since there wasn't enough evidence to make a case against her. And if someone has done something so terrible they can't be allowed to eat well or get a good nights sleep then the case shouldn't be dropped lightly.
- barrkel 6mo ago
  She was released; that means the charge was a mistake, and it caused damage to an innocent person.
  - mvdtnz 6mo ago
    That is not necessarily what it means.
    - lukas099 6mo ago
      Ah, so an innocent person wasn’t necessarily tortured for almost a month. That makes me feel better
  - reddozen 6mo ago
    [flagged]
    - eviks 6mo ago
      Was there a conviction, sentence and a pardon in this case or are you just discussing random unrelated cases?
    - cush 6mo ago
      Are you honestly comparing a foreigner being jailed in Japan then having their charges dropped to a J6 rioter receiving a Trump pardon? Why?
  - pseudo0 6mo ago
    That's not how it works. Especially for foreigners, where it's often easier to just make them someone else's problem, assuming the charges are relatively minor.
bigiain 6mo ago
> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. I am lucky enough to have a lot of middle aged middle class white male privilege. I wonder how many minority people in the US have much worse opinions and life experience of the justice system than you're implying? I wonder how many people consider typical ICE arrests and detention to be at least as "barbaric" and "psychological torture" as what's described in the article? I wonder how many young African American males (and their families) look at the private for-profit prison system and conclude the US justice system and policing are designed for "high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence.
- saltwatercowboy 6mo ago
  No one is disagreeing with you, but we're not talking about that just now.
  - Capricorn2481 6mo ago
    We're not? Someone compared the two directly.
- 9x39 6mo ago
  >the private for-profit prison system 92% of the prison system is government-run, no need to exaggerate. >conclude the US justice system and policing are designed for "high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate You can see that's not a particularly useful metric to evaluate a legal system (and in the US, states, tribal, federal differ). Americans ostensibly have the bill of rights in their favor, while Japan doesn't. Sure, you can't be indigent if you expect a vigorous defense from the state, but your odds are good if your case isn't hopeless, and many are - the incidence of plea deals typically reflects this.
  - omnimus 6mo ago
    Prisons in US might be run by gov but private companies profit heavily on services provided to these facilities. Basically everything possible is outsourced - commissary, food, healthcare, labour… Add that to highest incarceration rate in the world - around 600 people per 100k residents (japan for example is 40 per 100k). You get what people call for-profit prison system. It's not some secret or controversial claim.
insane_dreamer 6mo ago
> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. Still not as bad as what we've seen ICE do, for (allegedly) overstaying your visa, no less: no due process, children being separated from their parents and whereabouts unknown, horrible warehouse-like conditions, denial of medical care, people dying in custody, etc. Have any Japanese citizens been shot dead by police? [0] And that's before we even get to talking about the injustices of the "war on drugs"; are Japanese police shooting and killing young black males in the back? Yeah, the article is horrific, but I think Japan still has a ways to go to fall as low as the US these days unless you're white with money. I will say though that _in principle_ the US' justice system is much better because it's based on presumption of innocence, due process, rights, etc. Japan uses a so-called "inquisitorial" system, based on the French legal system, where the judge is also the investigator, with detention while the investigation moves forward. It's just that the reality in the US is different, depending on your visa status, color of your skin, and income level. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_rates_and_counts_for_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_...
hulitu 6mo ago
> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric Guantanamo, "secret" CIA "prisons" around the world.

by kelnos 6mo ago

nihonde 6mo ago

[flagged]

saagarjha 6mo ago
You're not really doing a great job selling the country, that's for sure.
- nihonde 5mo ago
  As if that was ever the goal. Japan is plenty popular.
fzeroracer 6mo ago
The charges were dropped. Regardless of your opinions on how an orderly government or justice system should run or how criminals should be treated, in this situation what happened was an innocent person was tortured by the state.
- pjjpo 6mo ago
  Even if you actually rape someone, if you settle with the victim jb cash, the charges are dropped. Something that really needs to change but seems to not be going so well. Not saying that's what happened in this case by any ways, just that dropped charges = innocent isn't true. And I agree with the OP that knowing the context would help sympathize, especially given usually someone innocent would share that more proactively. Instead, many are even assuming this is something about foreigners, with absolutely no basis to assume that...
- nihonde 5mo ago
  Charges were dropped does not mean innocent. It means the investigation determined that the case wasn't worth pursuing. Japan has strict rules about importing drugs. The lack of drug abuse in Japan is one of the reasons it's not a shithole like nearly everywhere else. Obviously foreigners are in the crosshairs for that particular category of transgressions, since they come from places with different attitudes toward certain drugs, and since they get sent stuff in the mail. You can be pretty sure that she got the message that the Japanese authorities wanted to send her.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
bradchris 6mo ago
You clearly have a different view of “innocent until proven guilty” than most US citizens, which is fine, maybe you aren’t one, but that line of rhetoric is going to be anathema to most people on this website. Not that the US criminal system isn’t its own complete mess, but thank God for the concept of bail (going about your life outside of jail until trial or dismissal, within certain parameters) and right to see a judge within 24 hours, to avoid any kafkaesque nightmares like this.
- EA-3167 6mo ago
  > You clearly have a different view of “innocent until proven guilty” Most people don't really understand it, and even the ones who do often have personal exceptions driven by emotion. The idea that you need to defend the guilty to protect the innocent is alien to a lot of people. Japan takes the lack of that assumption a step further though, since it's a society based on strict compliance to cultural norms... for better and for worse. Having said all of that, most of these systems do a credible job of distinguishing the innocent from the guilty, although there's always more to do on that front. If you've ever worked anywhere near the court system you start to notice that people who make it through the system all of the way to a trial are frequently guilty and even more frequently recidivist. Most people aren't criminals and never commit a serious offense, but speaking for myself I don't think the "sorting" the system does has to be anywhere close to as brutal and impersonal as it often is in many countries including Japan.
  - bradchris 6mo ago
    Primarily the US’s approach is: “we know our system will never be perfect [and the system we have is actually a hell of its own making], so we will ensure an escape hatch for BOTH innocent/guilty from the shortcomings of the system until a definitive verdict has been reached” While Japan’s/many other countries approach is: “We intend our court system to be a perfect representation of our culture, history, and policy objectives. Therefore it should apply in every case, regardless of individual circumstance, so there is no escape hatch, because why deviate from a perfect process.” The former is how you get the wildly inconsistent US approach to the criminal system, while the latter is how you get a kafkaesque nightmare (or worse, a system weaponized to intentionally target innocent undesirables, like El Salvador’s CECOT) Both are simplified, none are perfect, of course. But I know which system I’d rather be accused under.
EA-3167 6mo ago
If the only way that Japan can be clean and orderly is by abusing people for months at a time only to drop charges, you have to ask if maybe that's a problem. The conviction rate and reliance on often questionably obtained confessions is also a problem that's hardly only noticed by outsiders.
- Tor3 6mo ago
  The short version of the Japanese justice system is "Guilty until proved innocent", instead of (as in most modern countries) "Innocent until proved guilty". In addition to that, focus is much more on confessions instead of investigation - the latter exists of course, and is used for finding the culprit (as happened when we had a burglary at our house. They got the guy one year later). When someone is in custody though.. then it's about getting a confession. This can definitely be problematic, particularly when considering the conditions during custody. No lawyer.. or much of anything, except massive psychological pressure.
  - Tor3 6mo ago
    And today I read an article in a Japanese newspaper about an innocent woman who was detained for two years, because an interpreter translated a word incorrectly. And, apparently, deliberately. It finally went to court after two years (one must wonder how this is possible..) and was aquitted (with a comment that translation is supposed to be accurate and faithful). In the same article it was described how interpreters would believe that their job was to extract a confession. Recently an organization is trying to educate interpreters in ethics and what an interpreter's job actually is - to translate, and only translate.
- nihonde 5mo ago
  Have you visited literally any city outside Japan or Singapore lately? Law and order works, whether you like it or not. They're allowed to do it their way. Results speak for themselves.
roenxi 6mo ago
Going by the article the authorities in Japan decided that she didn't need an official punishment, so in this case they don't seem to think it matters what her charge was since there wasn't enough evidence to make a case against her. And if someone has done something so terrible they can't be allowed to eat well or get a good nights sleep then the case shouldn't be dropped lightly.
barrkel 6mo ago
She was released; that means the charge was a mistake, and it caused damage to an innocent person.
- mvdtnz 6mo ago
  That is not necessarily what it means.
  - lukas099 6mo ago
    Ah, so an innocent person wasn’t necessarily tortured for almost a month. That makes me feel better
- reddozen 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - eviks 6mo ago
    Was there a conviction, sentence and a pardon in this case or are you just discussing random unrelated cases?
  - cush 6mo ago
    Are you honestly comparing a foreigner being jailed in Japan then having their charges dropped to a J6 rioter receiving a Trump pardon? Why?
- pseudo0 6mo ago
  That's not how it works. Especially for foreigners, where it's often easier to just make them someone else's problem, assuming the charges are relatively minor.

bigiain 6mo ago

> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. I am lucky enough to have a lot of middle aged middle class white male privilege. I wonder how many minority people in the US have much worse opinions and life experience of the justice system than you're implying? I wonder how many people consider typical ICE arrests and detention to be at least as "barbaric" and "psychological torture" as what's described in the article? I wonder how many young African American males (and their families) look at the private for-profit prison system and conclude the US justice system and policing are designed for "high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence.

saltwatercowboy 6mo ago
No one is disagreeing with you, but we're not talking about that just now.
- Capricorn2481 6mo ago
  We're not? Someone compared the two directly.
9x39 6mo ago
>the private for-profit prison system 92% of the prison system is government-run, no need to exaggerate. >conclude the US justice system and policing are designed for "high conviction rates, regardless of guilt or innocence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate You can see that's not a particularly useful metric to evaluate a legal system (and in the US, states, tribal, federal differ). Americans ostensibly have the bill of rights in their favor, while Japan doesn't. Sure, you can't be indigent if you expect a vigorous defense from the state, but your odds are good if your case isn't hopeless, and many are - the incidence of plea deals typically reflects this.
- omnimus 6mo ago
  Prisons in US might be run by gov but private companies profit heavily on services provided to these facilities. Basically everything possible is outsourced - commissary, food, healthcare, labour… Add that to highest incarceration rate in the world - around 600 people per 100k residents (japan for example is 40 per 100k). You get what people call for-profit prison system. It's not some secret or controversial claim.

insane_dreamer 6mo ago

> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. Still not as bad as what we've seen ICE do, for (allegedly) overstaying your visa, no less: no due process, children being separated from their parents and whereabouts unknown, horrible warehouse-like conditions, denial of medical care, people dying in custody, etc. Have any Japanese citizens been shot dead by police? [0] And that's before we even get to talking about the injustices of the "war on drugs"; are Japanese police shooting and killing young black males in the back? Yeah, the article is horrific, but I think Japan still has a ways to go to fall as low as the US these days unless you're white with money. I will say though that _in principle_ the US' justice system is much better because it's based on presumption of innocence, due process, rights, etc. Japan uses a so-called "inquisitorial" system, based on the French legal system, where the judge is also the investigator, with detention while the investigation moves forward. It's just that the reality in the US is different, depending on your visa status, color of your skin, and income level. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_rates_and_counts_for_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_...

hulitu 6mo ago

> The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric Guantanamo, "secret" CIA "prisons" around the world.