3 ms·

Disagree. stdout is only reserved for actual processed command output. It may be empty, it may be invalid because the input was invalid (shit in, shit out), but

by anyfoo 5mo ago

Disagree. stdout is only reserved for actual processed command output. It may be empty, it may be invalid because the input was invalid (shit in, shit out), but it may never be things intended for a human to read. If one wants to use a pager (like I sometimes do, though most of the time I just scroll up), they'll just use `foo 2>&1 | less`.

ryandrake 5mo ago
GNU offers guidance[1] to output --help to stdout, but it's not against the law to do it your way. 1: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/_002d_002dhelp.html https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/_002d_002dhelp....
- anyfoo 5mo ago
  I guess this is a point where I disagree with GNU. Then again, the reasons why I disagree are subtle enough that I don't care too much... I think this particular thing doesn't matter very much in practice, so go do your thing GNU...
  - ryandrake 5mo ago
    Out of the problems we all agonize over, this is probably a 1 out of 10!
  - dylan604 5mo ago
    I can see both sides. As someone automating, I could see getting the malformed command -h result to stderr. I can also see that sending -h to stdout would be expected as that is the legit out as requested by the user. At the least, if -h is sent to stdout for a malformed command then by gawd it better be a nonzero exit. With that, I think (and boy did it hurt) that it's an okay rule to break
tardedmeme 5mo ago
I see you've never tried to run command --help | less
- anyfoo 5mo ago
  I just said that I always do `command --help 2>&1 | less`?
  - tardedmeme 5mo ago
    Pretty annoying. Wouldn't it be good if command --help would just display the help?
- king_geedorah 5mo ago
  Honestly if your help output requires the use of a pager or a text search utility to be useful I question why you didn’t just write a man page in the first place.
ramses0 5mo ago
In the case of `git log -100 | grep FOO`, the log output should go to stdout. In the case of `git diff | grep FOO`, the diff output should go to stdout. In the case of `git --help | grep FOO` the help output should go to stdout. In the case of `git --omg-wtf | grep FOO`, it's fine if there is only output on stderr.
archargelod 5mo ago
> stdout is only reserved for actual processed command output If user asks a program to print help message, the help text is the processed command output!

by anyfoo 5mo ago

ryandrake 5mo ago

GNU offers guidance[1] to output --help to stdout, but it's not against the law to do it your way. 1: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/_002d_002dhelp.html https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/_002d_002dhelp....

anyfoo 5mo ago
I guess this is a point where I disagree with GNU. Then again, the reasons why I disagree are subtle enough that I don't care too much... I think this particular thing doesn't matter very much in practice, so go do your thing GNU...
- ryandrake 5mo ago
  Out of the problems we all agonize over, this is probably a 1 out of 10!
- dylan604 5mo ago
  I can see both sides. As someone automating, I could see getting the malformed command -h result to stderr. I can also see that sending -h to stdout would be expected as that is the legit out as requested by the user. At the least, if -h is sent to stdout for a malformed command then by gawd it better be a nonzero exit. With that, I think (and boy did it hurt) that it's an okay rule to break

tardedmeme 5mo ago

I see you've never tried to run command --help | less

anyfoo 5mo ago
I just said that I always do `command --help 2>&1 | less`?
- tardedmeme 5mo ago
  Pretty annoying. Wouldn't it be good if command --help would just display the help?
king_geedorah 5mo ago
Honestly if your help output requires the use of a pager or a text search utility to be useful I question why you didn’t just write a man page in the first place.

ramses0 5mo ago

In the case of `git log -100 | grep FOO`, the log output should go to stdout. In the case of `git diff | grep FOO`, the diff output should go to stdout. In the case of `git --help | grep FOO` the help output should go to stdout. In the case of `git --omg-wtf | grep FOO`, it's fine if there is only output on stderr.

archargelod 5mo ago

> stdout is only reserved for actual processed command output If user asks a program to print help message, the help text is the processed command output!