5 ms·

What kind of dev salaries are you seeing in Poland? I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy.

by avgDev 5mo ago

What kind of dev salaries are you seeing in Poland? I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy. I wonder if things are similar in large cities.

baq 5mo ago
this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything. perhaps that's the secret to success - there's always something to complain about and one in a hundred (or thousand) people actually does something about it.
- kleiba2 5mo ago
  > this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything Must be the proximity to Germany...
  - scotty79 5mo ago
    It's quite incredible how close Poland and Germany are culturally. And how unaware both countries are about this.
    - Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
      Are they really unaware or do they actively deny the cultural connections? Prussia was a thing not that long ago - it is still used as a slang term for Germans in parts of the Netherlands ("de Pruisen" of "die Preußen"). Anyone who had a bit of history or who has looked at an older map sees that Prussia was divided between what is now Germany and Poland. Of course both countries went through a lot of upheaval between then and now but there's still plenty of people alive who will remember living in Prussia.
- Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
  > this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything That is western Europe for you, not just Poland. Same in the Netherlands, same in Sweden, same in Belgium, same in Denmark, same in Norway, same in France, same in Germany, etcetera. Descartes claimed that he thought, therefore he was. A more realistic and equally erudite quote would be Queror, ergo sum which translates to I complain, therefore I am. (also, q.e.d. because I'm complaining about people complaining)
  - alterom 5mo ago
    >That is western Europe for you, not just Poland Sorry, no, you are missing the point. The specific anti-EU complaining among the less-educated, older and rural population which benefits a lot from Poland being an EU state is not the same in Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, Norway. It is the same in Hungary and Slovakia though, for a reason. Today's news brings us the following headline: "Fugitive former Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro is now in the United States courtesy of a visa from President Donald Trump after fleeing Hungary, local media report."[1] In case it is not apparent to you, Ziobro was running on the PiS party ticket — the very same party running on the anti-EU sentiment that the people we're discussing have, in all certainty, voted for. That's in the wake of another PiS-aligned fugitive judge, Tomasz Szmydt, fleeing investigation for espionage to find refuge in... Belarus[2]. Naturally, he condemned Poland for being too "pro-Western". Swedish judges don't do that, while hiding in Belarus. You don't have PiS in Sweden. And Trump isn't welcoming fugitive Justice Ministers from Sweden into the US because they can't hide in Hungary anymore.. ...because the Hungarian MAGA lost the elections there (in spite of JD Vance flying over to campaign for Orban, Orban giving speeches at CPAC, and Trump explicitly praising him). Do you realize how off mark your objection to applying "the MAGA moniker" to PiS supporters is? It's not even metaphorical; they're directly collaborating on a political level. Have a good one, hope you learned something. Skol. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/ex-poland-justice-minister-ziobro-flees-us-hungary-orban-magyar-tusk-trump/ https://www.politico.eu/article/ex-poland-justice-minister-z... [2] https://visegradinsight.eu/judge-hater-penitent-spy-the-story-of-judge-tomasz-szmydt/ https://visegradinsight.eu/judge-hater-penitent-spy-the-stor...
kleiba2 5mo ago
> and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy That's funny because Poland became dramatically richer after joining the EU, it allowed them access to one of the richest markets on Earth. I understand that if you're from a smaller village you might also have missed the enormous infrastructure investments (highways, airports, sewage systems, etc.) that have only been possible because of EU money. Then there's all the foreign companies that you mentioned whose investments have provided jobs directly and indirectly - as a EU member, Poland has become a lot more attractive for foreign investors. And arguable, Poland carries a much bigger weight in international policies then it used to. These points are not to say that there's nothing to criticize about the EU. As a matter of fact, there's not shortage of things to criticize. But it's unfair not to see the enormous gains Poland got since joining. I would go so far as to argue that Poland is one of the biggest success stories of post-1989 Europe.
- scotty79 5mo ago
  > I understand that if you're from a smaller village you might also have missed the enormous infrastructure investments (highways, airports, sewage systems, etc.) that have only been possible because of EU money. That's the key. There wasn't enough done to ensure that everyone can enjoy the benefits. That why at some point populists won the vote and ruled the country for 8 years. They are still kicking. Recently elected president of Poland is from the populist camp. They still have support even though they didn't really hide their kleptocratic tendencies. Fortunately somehow they didn't manage to do significant macroeconomic harm. But they stalled development of renewables for a decade.
  - alterom 5mo ago
    You really ought to call out Nawrocki and PiS by name (populist president/party), for all the non-Europeans out there. For anyone new to Polish politics, here's an easy mnemonic: PiS = piss. >Fortunately somehow they didn't manage to do significant macroeconomic harm. Yay for parliamentary systems with proportional representation. That's how.
alterom 5mo ago
>I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy Ah, the Polish MAGA. Probably Russian-influenced as well.
- Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - scotty79 5mo ago
    No, he's right. It's not republican vs democrat. It's about people who weren't lucky enough (and word lucky does a lot of work here) to feel the benefits of the progressive policies. People who are easily captured by populist grifters, using simplest scaremongering tactics that russian propaganda happily manufactures and disseminates in the West. In US it stopped being republicans vs democrats many years ago. They just didn't throw away the old labels.
    - alterom 5mo ago
      Dziękuję bardzo! Ale oni i tak nic nie przeczytają :(
      - Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
        Två kan spela samma spel, frågan är vem det nu är som läser eller lyssnar och vem inte gör det. Det hjälper inte heller att kalla allt som inte passar åsiktskorridoren som 'extremhöger' eller amerikanska versionen av samma konceptet, inte heller att peka fingret mot påstådda 'fienden' och kalla honom för ryssvänlig. Also, let's speak English here so everyone understands what we're talking about. Ja nje omje moviez po Polsku (I probably butchered the spelling but you get my drift). Ja nje gawarje pa roesskie either but English I can do pretty well.
        alterom 5mo ago
        >Två kan spela samma spel, frågan är vem det nu är som läser eller lyssnar och vem inte gör det. Det hjälper inte heller att kalla allt som inte passar åsiktskorridoren som 'extremhöger' eller amerikanska versionen av samma konceptet, inte heller att peka fingret mot påstådda 'fienden' och kalla honom för ryssvänlig. >Also, let's speak English here so everyone understands what we're talking about. Ja nje omje moviez po Polsku (I probably butchered the spelling but you get my drift). Ja nje gawarje pa roesskie either but English I can do pretty well. The funny thing here is that if one skips the non-English part of your comment, they don't miss anything of substance that applies to this discussion. I'm not "playing games", and I've stated the facts in my longer comment. Please respond there if you have opinions, and please quote the parts you're not agreeing with, because here you seem to be arguing with points nobody in this conversation made. In any case, I'm happy for you in Sweden (I presume), where, unlike the people you're attempting to correct, you are not directly affected by either MAGA in the US or the Polish equivalent. I'm guessing that nobody ever called you a kurwa when they heard you speak, or threatened to beat you up in public for looking too queer, so you can still have enlightened opinions about American and Polish "conservatives" without ever having to interact with them. I'm sorry you were triggered by seeing the word "MAGA" to the extent that you felt the need to tell me to stop talking. Sadly, in a discussion about Poland and the anti-EU sentiment there, MAGA is very much relevant. I accept your non-apology in all the languages you don't speak, and I'm glad that you have a sufficient command of the English language to participate in this discussion. Nice Swedish too though. Have you been studying it for a while? Since we are discussing Poland, knowing a bit of Polish to understand the context would have been useful. Unfortunately, the Swedish language plays very little role in the geopolitical situation we're discussing, and won't help you understand either MAGA or PiS supporters. Speaking of understanding, I'm curious about your basis for understanding American, Polish, and Russian politics, given that you don't appear to have any lived experience, direct exposure, or command of the languages (aside from English, presumably). I surely hope your knowledge of the US politics is sourced from more than Hacker News and media personalities like John Oliver. In any case, thank you again for trying to say something that another person might find valuable, and I wish you luck in your next attempt. Skol.
laughing_man 5mo ago
Joining the EU meant giving up some measure of sovereignty, so they're living under a regulatory regime that's probably more extensive than it would be if Poland were independent. Also, people like to complain.
badpun 5mo ago
Typical salary for a senior dev is around 20-30k PLN per month, which translates to $65k-$100k per year (gross). Also, a lot of devs do a little bit of tax avoidance that is currently not persecuted, which allows them to pay total taxes below 20% on that amount. So, your take-home pay is $50k-$80k.
- elbear 5mo ago
  That's a good salary, better than Romania on average. And if you also have lower prices (at least that's what I heard), even better then.
- avgDev 5mo ago
  That is a decent salary! I guess it could be an option for me one day if I get tired of the US.
- tasuki 5mo ago
  > Typical salary for a senior dev is around 20-30k PLN per month Typical, yes, though it's possible to earn way more than that. Not that 20-30k PLN per month is bad, the average Polish salary is perhaps around 9k and the median around 7k. 20-30k PLN goes a long way in Poland. Some seven years ago, I was spending around 7k PLN a month, living in the beautiful Warsaw old town, 50 metres from Kolumna Zygmunta, eating out all the time, and generally felt I was living like a king. Good times!
  - seba_dos1 5mo ago
    It does go a long way, but note that 2019's 7k PLN is today's 11k (or 15k if you use the Big Mac index).
- thegreatwhale8 5mo ago
  This website says Senior Java Developer is 20kPLN-27k PLN (64k USD per year after taxes) (employment contract) and 25k PLN-30k PLN if you agree to lose employee rights. https://bulldogjob.com/it-report/salaries/java https://bulldogjob.com/it-report/salaries/java 30k PLN per month on employment contract would be 71k usd per year after taxes

by avgDev 5mo ago

baq 5mo ago

this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything. perhaps that's the secret to success - there's always something to complain about and one in a hundred (or thousand) people actually does something about it.

kleiba2 5mo ago
> this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything Must be the proximity to Germany...
- scotty79 5mo ago
  It's quite incredible how close Poland and Germany are culturally. And how unaware both countries are about this.
  - Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
    Are they really unaware or do they actively deny the cultural connections? Prussia was a thing not that long ago - it is still used as a slang term for Germans in parts of the Netherlands ("de Pruisen" of "die Preußen"). Anyone who had a bit of history or who has looked at an older map sees that Prussia was divided between what is now Germany and Poland. Of course both countries went through a lot of upheaval between then and now but there's still plenty of people alive who will remember living in Prussia.
Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
> this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything That is western Europe for you, not just Poland. Same in the Netherlands, same in Sweden, same in Belgium, same in Denmark, same in Norway, same in France, same in Germany, etcetera. Descartes claimed that he thought, therefore he was. A more realistic and equally erudite quote would be Queror, ergo sum which translates to I complain, therefore I am. (also, q.e.d. because I'm complaining about people complaining)
- alterom 5mo ago
  >That is western Europe for you, not just Poland Sorry, no, you are missing the point. The specific anti-EU complaining among the less-educated, older and rural population which benefits a lot from Poland being an EU state is not the same in Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, Norway. It is the same in Hungary and Slovakia though, for a reason. Today's news brings us the following headline: "Fugitive former Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro is now in the United States courtesy of a visa from President Donald Trump after fleeing Hungary, local media report."[1] In case it is not apparent to you, Ziobro was running on the PiS party ticket — the very same party running on the anti-EU sentiment that the people we're discussing have, in all certainty, voted for. That's in the wake of another PiS-aligned fugitive judge, Tomasz Szmydt, fleeing investigation for espionage to find refuge in... Belarus[2]. Naturally, he condemned Poland for being too "pro-Western". Swedish judges don't do that, while hiding in Belarus. You don't have PiS in Sweden. And Trump isn't welcoming fugitive Justice Ministers from Sweden into the US because they can't hide in Hungary anymore.. ...because the Hungarian MAGA lost the elections there (in spite of JD Vance flying over to campaign for Orban, Orban giving speeches at CPAC, and Trump explicitly praising him). Do you realize how off mark your objection to applying "the MAGA moniker" to PiS supporters is? It's not even metaphorical; they're directly collaborating on a political level. Have a good one, hope you learned something. Skol. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/ex-poland-justice-minister-ziobro-flees-us-hungary-orban-magyar-tusk-trump/ https://www.politico.eu/article/ex-poland-justice-minister-z... [2] https://visegradinsight.eu/judge-hater-penitent-spy-the-story-of-judge-tomasz-szmydt/ https://visegradinsight.eu/judge-hater-penitent-spy-the-stor...

kleiba2 5mo ago

> and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy That's funny because Poland became dramatically richer after joining the EU, it allowed them access to one of the richest markets on Earth. I understand that if you're from a smaller village you might also have missed the enormous infrastructure investments (highways, airports, sewage systems, etc.) that have only been possible because of EU money. Then there's all the foreign companies that you mentioned whose investments have provided jobs directly and indirectly - as a EU member, Poland has become a lot more attractive for foreign investors. And arguable, Poland carries a much bigger weight in international policies then it used to. These points are not to say that there's nothing to criticize about the EU. As a matter of fact, there's not shortage of things to criticize. But it's unfair not to see the enormous gains Poland got since joining. I would go so far as to argue that Poland is one of the biggest success stories of post-1989 Europe.

scotty79 5mo ago
> I understand that if you're from a smaller village you might also have missed the enormous infrastructure investments (highways, airports, sewage systems, etc.) that have only been possible because of EU money. That's the key. There wasn't enough done to ensure that everyone can enjoy the benefits. That why at some point populists won the vote and ruled the country for 8 years. They are still kicking. Recently elected president of Poland is from the populist camp. They still have support even though they didn't really hide their kleptocratic tendencies. Fortunately somehow they didn't manage to do significant macroeconomic harm. But they stalled development of renewables for a decade.
- alterom 5mo ago
  You really ought to call out Nawrocki and PiS by name (populist president/party), for all the non-Europeans out there. For anyone new to Polish politics, here's an easy mnemonic: PiS = piss. >Fortunately somehow they didn't manage to do significant macroeconomic harm. Yay for parliamentary systems with proportional representation. That's how.

alterom 5mo ago

>I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy Ah, the Polish MAGA. Probably Russian-influenced as well.

Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
[flagged]
- scotty79 5mo ago
  No, he's right. It's not republican vs democrat. It's about people who weren't lucky enough (and word lucky does a lot of work here) to feel the benefits of the progressive policies. People who are easily captured by populist grifters, using simplest scaremongering tactics that russian propaganda happily manufactures and disseminates in the West. In US it stopped being republicans vs democrats many years ago. They just didn't throw away the old labels.
  - alterom 5mo ago
    Dziękuję bardzo! Ale oni i tak nic nie przeczytają :(
    - Leonard_of_Q 5mo ago
      Två kan spela samma spel, frågan är vem det nu är som läser eller lyssnar och vem inte gör det. Det hjälper inte heller att kalla allt som inte passar åsiktskorridoren som 'extremhöger' eller amerikanska versionen av samma konceptet, inte heller att peka fingret mot påstådda 'fienden' och kalla honom för ryssvänlig. Also, let's speak English here so everyone understands what we're talking about. Ja nje omje moviez po Polsku (I probably butchered the spelling but you get my drift). Ja nje gawarje pa roesskie either but English I can do pretty well.
      - alterom 5mo ago
        >Två kan spela samma spel, frågan är vem det nu är som läser eller lyssnar och vem inte gör det. Det hjälper inte heller att kalla allt som inte passar åsiktskorridoren som 'extremhöger' eller amerikanska versionen av samma konceptet, inte heller att peka fingret mot påstådda 'fienden' och kalla honom för ryssvänlig. >Also, let's speak English here so everyone understands what we're talking about. Ja nje omje moviez po Polsku (I probably butchered the spelling but you get my drift). Ja nje gawarje pa roesskie either but English I can do pretty well. The funny thing here is that if one skips the non-English part of your comment, they don't miss anything of substance that applies to this discussion. I'm not "playing games", and I've stated the facts in my longer comment. Please respond there if you have opinions, and please quote the parts you're not agreeing with, because here you seem to be arguing with points nobody in this conversation made. In any case, I'm happy for you in Sweden (I presume), where, unlike the people you're attempting to correct, you are not directly affected by either MAGA in the US or the Polish equivalent. I'm guessing that nobody ever called you a kurwa when they heard you speak, or threatened to beat you up in public for looking too queer, so you can still have enlightened opinions about American and Polish "conservatives" without ever having to interact with them. I'm sorry you were triggered by seeing the word "MAGA" to the extent that you felt the need to tell me to stop talking. Sadly, in a discussion about Poland and the anti-EU sentiment there, MAGA is very much relevant. I accept your non-apology in all the languages you don't speak, and I'm glad that you have a sufficient command of the English language to participate in this discussion. Nice Swedish too though. Have you been studying it for a while? Since we are discussing Poland, knowing a bit of Polish to understand the context would have been useful. Unfortunately, the Swedish language plays very little role in the geopolitical situation we're discussing, and won't help you understand either MAGA or PiS supporters. Speaking of understanding, I'm curious about your basis for understanding American, Polish, and Russian politics, given that you don't appear to have any lived experience, direct exposure, or command of the languages (aside from English, presumably). I surely hope your knowledge of the US politics is sourced from more than Hacker News and media personalities like John Oliver. In any case, thank you again for trying to say something that another person might find valuable, and I wish you luck in your next attempt. Skol.

laughing_man 5mo ago

Joining the EU meant giving up some measure of sovereignty, so they're living under a regulatory regime that's probably more extensive than it would be if Poland were independent. Also, people like to complain.

badpun 5mo ago

Typical salary for a senior dev is around 20-30k PLN per month, which translates to $65k-$100k per year (gross). Also, a lot of devs do a little bit of tax avoidance that is currently not persecuted, which allows them to pay total taxes below 20% on that amount. So, your take-home pay is $50k-$80k.

elbear 5mo ago
That's a good salary, better than Romania on average. And if you also have lower prices (at least that's what I heard), even better then.
avgDev 5mo ago
That is a decent salary! I guess it could be an option for me one day if I get tired of the US.
tasuki 5mo ago
> Typical salary for a senior dev is around 20-30k PLN per month Typical, yes, though it's possible to earn way more than that. Not that 20-30k PLN per month is bad, the average Polish salary is perhaps around 9k and the median around 7k. 20-30k PLN goes a long way in Poland. Some seven years ago, I was spending around 7k PLN a month, living in the beautiful Warsaw old town, 50 metres from Kolumna Zygmunta, eating out all the time, and generally felt I was living like a king. Good times!
- seba_dos1 5mo ago
  It does go a long way, but note that 2019's 7k PLN is today's 11k (or 15k if you use the Big Mac index).
thegreatwhale8 5mo ago
This website says Senior Java Developer is 20kPLN-27k PLN (64k USD per year after taxes) (employment contract) and 25k PLN-30k PLN if you agree to lose employee rights. https://bulldogjob.com/it-report/salaries/java https://bulldogjob.com/it-report/salaries/java 30k PLN per month on employment contract would be 71k usd per year after taxes