6 ms·

How Nintendo DRM trapped $400 of downloaded games on my failing Wii

53 points by vectorbunny 14y ago

myko 14y ago
Nintendo's handling of purchased digital goods is a disaster. I just wish I had the will power to stop throwing money at them. I'm hoping I don't have similar issues transferring my (relatively meager) Virtual Console library to the Wii U - though it seems I'll have this same problem if a new Nintendo comes out in the future.
- samspot 14y ago
  I also initially purchased a lot of games on the Virtual Console before I realized how behind the times they are on digital goods. Since then I've been able to restrain myself from buying any more digital content from them. I really like the company in general, and would love to keep purchasing their products, but they are going to have to prove to me that I won't need to repurchase digital goods in the case of hardware failures or upgrades.
- strmpnk 14y ago
  I felt like I was in a similar position until I discovered that there are vibrant indie game scenes on many other platforms [0]. So now, when I get the urge to spend on games, I try to remember to support indie gaming first. I will mention that news of Nintendo's support for indie devs on the Wii U is an unexpected trend in the right direction. This probably puts them on part with the PS3 & Xbox 360: not great but better than nothing. While MSFT has XNA, the iOS and Android ecosystems are killing the outdated distribution & publishing models of the consoles. Hopefully this ends well for everyone. --- [0]: PC & Mac being the least encumbered, iOS and Android with similar developer access but distribution control. Also see kickstarter projects like FTL, which rocked my socks off.
gnu8 14y ago
Take them to small claims court. They will respond almost instantly with a generous settlement and a NDA to protect their corrupt DRM house of cards.
- chrischen 14y ago
  With a Wii U at least, there's a clause in the license agreement that you waive your right to sue unless you send written notice.
  - boyter 14y ago
    Not trying to be sarcastic or such, but I am willing to bet that the agreement is inside the box IE you have "agreed" to it without knowing its contents when you buy the console and open it. If that's the case will it hold up?
    - pyre 14y ago
      Well, I guess an argument could be made that you should read it, and if you don't accept it, you can then return the product. Of course, this calls into question whether or not his 'open box' return will be for full face-value, etc.
  - gnu8 14y ago
    The agreement found at http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wiiu/en_na/account_your_account.jsp http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wiiu/en_na/account_... excludes two cases: 1) protection of intellectual property rights (by either party) 2) small claims court So if you just want your money back for your games it shouldn't be a problem to get it. The exception for intellectual property claims is perhaps more interesting. Nintendo insists on stacking the deck and forcing anyone they've screwed to individually go through their rigged kangaroo court(1), except when enforcing their own intellectual property rights. I wonder how effective they would be pursuing pirates with mandatory binding arbitration, which the pirates haven't agreed to in any case, rather than filing DMCA complaints. Perhaps though, if you've purchased licenses to their games and now you can't play them, that could be considered to be an intellectual property related dispute: interference with your right to use your legal licenses of their intellectual property. (1)Not hyperbole, mandatory arbitration clauses are patently unfair and should be illegal, or legally made to have the effect of optional arbitration clauses.
MichaelGG 14y ago
Transferring via SD should be an optional optimization/convenience for folks with large collections. Otherwise, it should be as simple as activating+downloading your account on the new device, with the old device deactivating next time it connects. Is Nintendo really worried folks are going to go around downloading onto devices and never connect them to the Internet again? If folks are willing to put up with workarounds like that, they'll probably also be willing to flat-out pirate things. This moronic DRM implementation ignores that he could take money and put it towards a tiny cube PC running an emulator. Then he'd get better graphics and an overall better experience (play whatever he wants, however, wherever). Nintendo had a great chance to create an enjoyable system that encourages people to freely spend and use their accounts all over the place. Instead they lock it down and annoy folks, which will most definitely cost them more in lost sales than the handful of people who'd download a game twice.
- EvanKelly 14y ago
  I agree, given the prevalence of homebrew on the Wii (much more than I've noticed on other consoles), you would think that Nintendo wouldn't be so draconian about people attempting to transfer legitimate purchases. This again demonstrates Nintendo's misunderstanding of the online space. My Wii has been relegated to a Netflix machine (with occasional local MarioKart matches) and my DS is essentially a Virtual Console machine for me because the times I've tried to get online play to work on those devices has been a huge failure. I'm sure it works for some, but it wasn't worth the hassle for me, especially due to the lack of titles with online support. If Nintendo offered online play for Virtual Console titles I'd be doing my damndest to get online and play tecmo super bowl or Super Smash Bros. N64 against my friends, but until then, I think it's just a Netflix machine for me.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  Especially seeing the price people paid for these 15+ year old games. For Nintendo it is like a mine of Gold: zero work needed to make them run, and full profits for almost no bandwidth cost. The simple fact that people are even willing to buy such old games at that price is baffling to me.
  - 14y ago
AUmrysh 14y ago
You should pirate all of your software you previously purchased. If you've already paid for it, there's no reason you shouldn't have access to it. Laws be damned, that's my opinion.
- ihuman 14y ago
  How would he put in on the Wii U, then?
  - Jach 14y ago
    http://hackaday.com/2012/11/19/launch-day-wii-u-homebrew-is-very-encouraging/ http://hackaday.com/2012/11/19/launch-day-wii-u-homebrew-is-...
- TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
  This is a legal question: If I go buy X content (DVD, music cd, random playstation game), and the medium is destroyed, what happens to my license under Copyright law? In what instrument is my license under Copyright law located? Do I still retain the right of a copy and to procure a copy elsewhere? If not, why not?
  - caf 14y ago
    I've often wondered what happens when a junkie breaks into my house and steals a CD. Since a license is intagible it shouldn't be possible to physically steal it - so presumably I end up with a license but no copy of the music to play, and the thief (or whoever they sell it to) ends up with a copy of the music but no license to play it?
  - polymatter 14y ago
    (IANAL) If your medium is destroyed you still have a licence, but you do not have a medium in which to exercise that licence. You therefore need to buy a new medium. You are prohibited from making a copy of the medium as that would allow you to distribute it which is braking the terms of your licence.
bcRIPster 14y ago
I'd post a reply there but there's really no point with the volume of comments already. Most likely he simply has a corrupt binary on one of his games. The "quick" way to resolve this is actually go through and launch all of the games and see if any fail. Delete the ones that fail and then try the transfer. I would bet 99% that that's the problem.
meaty 14y ago
Due diligence. If you buy ANYTHING poisoned with DRM, expect dragons like this. There is nothing than can come from DRM other than eventually losing what you paid for through device death, key loss, service shutdown. It's not about will but when.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  I have been wondering the same thing about Steam, actually. Do you think we will be seeing a Steam "scandal" like that in the future, where a game suddenly becomes unavailable and you lose access to it for one reason or another? So far Valve has been able to keep things straight with everyone to make it almost feel like you owned the games, but it's just a licence to play them in the end.
  - nekojima 14y ago
    It is because of this licensing arrangement with Steam that I have not purchased a single game from them where I did not get at least a 75% discount off the normal sales price. I don't care if I have to wait, like I did when I finally purchased a game last week for 75% off after waiting a year for a sale, but since I don't own a copy (physical, transferable & with DRM) of the game, I don't see the point of paying full price to Steam or any other games provider.
    - ekianjo 14y ago
      Funny, I have the exact same behavior towards Steam. And on the other hand, I fully embrace the Humble Bundle and GOG as they provide you with executables without DRMs - I just wish they would expand in more recent games (GOG especially).
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      Yeah, I never buy new games on Steam. Most of my purchases are < $5 and they are all < $10
TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
If you are interested in Virtual Console games, instead check out different emulators: NES: Nestopia, FCEUX SNES: bSnes, Zsnes, Snes9x Game Boy: VisualBoyAdvance N64: 1964, NEMU64 Roms (file archives copied from cartridges) are easy to find. Some systems, you will need a bootrom, which is also easy to find. Just post if you have questions how to set this up.
pixie_ 14y ago
What is it about Japanese companies and their inability to create good online services. 3ds, ps3, psp, wiiU, etc.. so much potential.. xbox live is already a good example of how it's done. A simple copy of that would be 1000x better than what's there now.
- minikomi 14y ago
  Although the attitude is starting to show a chance of waning, the truth is that software is simply not valued over hardware.
Raticide 14y ago
Why can't downloaded Wii apps work like iPhone apps? I've never had an issue transferring those to a new device.
- Jare 14y ago
  How many times have you done that? I recall iDevices had a limit of 5 or so.
  - wmf 14y ago
    As long as you unregister each device before it breaks you can stay under the limit indefinitely.
    - arjunnarayan 14y ago
      You can unregister devices even without the devices present, i.e. if they break, like in this situation.
  - arrrg 14y ago
    There is no such limit. That only ever applied to media content (if it has DRM). You can install apps on as many devices as you want and redownload them as often as you want. They are bound to your account, not specific devices. If you, for example, set up a new iOS device you can just pick your iCloud backup from another device on startup and your new device will automatically download all your apps from the App Store. Mac App Store apps are similar: You can download them (as often as you want) and use them on as many Macs you own or control. They are bound to your account, not your Mac. (The sole exception might be certain iLife apps like iPhoto that come for free with your Mac. Those might be bound to the specific machine you bought, they might not, I’m not sure.)

53 points by vectorbunny 14y ago

myko 14y ago

Nintendo's handling of purchased digital goods is a disaster. I just wish I had the will power to stop throwing money at them. I'm hoping I don't have similar issues transferring my (relatively meager) Virtual Console library to the Wii U - though it seems I'll have this same problem if a new Nintendo comes out in the future.

samspot 14y ago
I also initially purchased a lot of games on the Virtual Console before I realized how behind the times they are on digital goods. Since then I've been able to restrain myself from buying any more digital content from them. I really like the company in general, and would love to keep purchasing their products, but they are going to have to prove to me that I won't need to repurchase digital goods in the case of hardware failures or upgrades.
strmpnk 14y ago
I felt like I was in a similar position until I discovered that there are vibrant indie game scenes on many other platforms [0]. So now, when I get the urge to spend on games, I try to remember to support indie gaming first. I will mention that news of Nintendo's support for indie devs on the Wii U is an unexpected trend in the right direction. This probably puts them on part with the PS3 & Xbox 360: not great but better than nothing. While MSFT has XNA, the iOS and Android ecosystems are killing the outdated distribution & publishing models of the consoles. Hopefully this ends well for everyone. --- [0]: PC & Mac being the least encumbered, iOS and Android with similar developer access but distribution control. Also see kickstarter projects like FTL, which rocked my socks off.

gnu8 14y ago

Take them to small claims court. They will respond almost instantly with a generous settlement and a NDA to protect their corrupt DRM house of cards.

chrischen 14y ago
With a Wii U at least, there's a clause in the license agreement that you waive your right to sue unless you send written notice.
- boyter 14y ago
  Not trying to be sarcastic or such, but I am willing to bet that the agreement is inside the box IE you have "agreed" to it without knowing its contents when you buy the console and open it. If that's the case will it hold up?
  - pyre 14y ago
    Well, I guess an argument could be made that you should read it, and if you don't accept it, you can then return the product. Of course, this calls into question whether or not his 'open box' return will be for full face-value, etc.
- gnu8 14y ago
  The agreement found at http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wiiu/en_na/account_your_account.jsp http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wiiu/en_na/account_... excludes two cases: 1) protection of intellectual property rights (by either party) 2) small claims court So if you just want your money back for your games it shouldn't be a problem to get it. The exception for intellectual property claims is perhaps more interesting. Nintendo insists on stacking the deck and forcing anyone they've screwed to individually go through their rigged kangaroo court(1), except when enforcing their own intellectual property rights. I wonder how effective they would be pursuing pirates with mandatory binding arbitration, which the pirates haven't agreed to in any case, rather than filing DMCA complaints. Perhaps though, if you've purchased licenses to their games and now you can't play them, that could be considered to be an intellectual property related dispute: interference with your right to use your legal licenses of their intellectual property. (1)Not hyperbole, mandatory arbitration clauses are patently unfair and should be illegal, or legally made to have the effect of optional arbitration clauses.

MichaelGG 14y ago

Transferring via SD should be an optional optimization/convenience for folks with large collections. Otherwise, it should be as simple as activating+downloading your account on the new device, with the old device deactivating next time it connects. Is Nintendo really worried folks are going to go around downloading onto devices and never connect them to the Internet again? If folks are willing to put up with workarounds like that, they'll probably also be willing to flat-out pirate things. This moronic DRM implementation ignores that he could take money and put it towards a tiny cube PC running an emulator. Then he'd get better graphics and an overall better experience (play whatever he wants, however, wherever). Nintendo had a great chance to create an enjoyable system that encourages people to freely spend and use their accounts all over the place. Instead they lock it down and annoy folks, which will most definitely cost them more in lost sales than the handful of people who'd download a game twice.

EvanKelly 14y ago
I agree, given the prevalence of homebrew on the Wii (much more than I've noticed on other consoles), you would think that Nintendo wouldn't be so draconian about people attempting to transfer legitimate purchases. This again demonstrates Nintendo's misunderstanding of the online space. My Wii has been relegated to a Netflix machine (with occasional local MarioKart matches) and my DS is essentially a Virtual Console machine for me because the times I've tried to get online play to work on those devices has been a huge failure. I'm sure it works for some, but it wasn't worth the hassle for me, especially due to the lack of titles with online support. If Nintendo offered online play for Virtual Console titles I'd be doing my damndest to get online and play tecmo super bowl or Super Smash Bros. N64 against my friends, but until then, I think it's just a Netflix machine for me.
ekianjo 14y ago
Especially seeing the price people paid for these 15+ year old games. For Nintendo it is like a mine of Gold: zero work needed to make them run, and full profits for almost no bandwidth cost. The simple fact that people are even willing to buy such old games at that price is baffling to me.
- 14y ago

AUmrysh 14y ago

You should pirate all of your software you previously purchased. If you've already paid for it, there's no reason you shouldn't have access to it. Laws be damned, that's my opinion.

ihuman 14y ago
How would he put in on the Wii U, then?
- Jach 14y ago
  http://hackaday.com/2012/11/19/launch-day-wii-u-homebrew-is-very-encouraging/ http://hackaday.com/2012/11/19/launch-day-wii-u-homebrew-is-...
TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
This is a legal question: If I go buy X content (DVD, music cd, random playstation game), and the medium is destroyed, what happens to my license under Copyright law? In what instrument is my license under Copyright law located? Do I still retain the right of a copy and to procure a copy elsewhere? If not, why not?
- caf 14y ago
  I've often wondered what happens when a junkie breaks into my house and steals a CD. Since a license is intagible it shouldn't be possible to physically steal it - so presumably I end up with a license but no copy of the music to play, and the thief (or whoever they sell it to) ends up with a copy of the music but no license to play it?
- polymatter 14y ago
  (IANAL) If your medium is destroyed you still have a licence, but you do not have a medium in which to exercise that licence. You therefore need to buy a new medium. You are prohibited from making a copy of the medium as that would allow you to distribute it which is braking the terms of your licence.

bcRIPster 14y ago

I'd post a reply there but there's really no point with the volume of comments already. Most likely he simply has a corrupt binary on one of his games. The "quick" way to resolve this is actually go through and launch all of the games and see if any fail. Delete the ones that fail and then try the transfer. I would bet 99% that that's the problem.

meaty 14y ago

Due diligence. If you buy ANYTHING poisoned with DRM, expect dragons like this. There is nothing than can come from DRM other than eventually losing what you paid for through device death, key loss, service shutdown. It's not about will but when.

ekianjo 14y ago
I have been wondering the same thing about Steam, actually. Do you think we will be seeing a Steam "scandal" like that in the future, where a game suddenly becomes unavailable and you lose access to it for one reason or another? So far Valve has been able to keep things straight with everyone to make it almost feel like you owned the games, but it's just a licence to play them in the end.
- nekojima 14y ago
  It is because of this licensing arrangement with Steam that I have not purchased a single game from them where I did not get at least a 75% discount off the normal sales price. I don't care if I have to wait, like I did when I finally purchased a game last week for 75% off after waiting a year for a sale, but since I don't own a copy (physical, transferable & with DRM) of the game, I don't see the point of paying full price to Steam or any other games provider.
  - ekianjo 14y ago
    Funny, I have the exact same behavior towards Steam. And on the other hand, I fully embrace the Humble Bundle and GOG as they provide you with executables without DRMs - I just wish they would expand in more recent games (GOG especially).
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    Yeah, I never buy new games on Steam. Most of my purchases are < $5 and they are all < $10

TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago

If you are interested in Virtual Console games, instead check out different emulators: NES: Nestopia, FCEUX SNES: bSnes, Zsnes, Snes9x Game Boy: VisualBoyAdvance N64: 1964, NEMU64 Roms (file archives copied from cartridges) are easy to find. Some systems, you will need a bootrom, which is also easy to find. Just post if you have questions how to set this up.

pixie_ 14y ago

What is it about Japanese companies and their inability to create good online services. 3ds, ps3, psp, wiiU, etc.. so much potential.. xbox live is already a good example of how it's done. A simple copy of that would be 1000x better than what's there now.

minikomi 14y ago
Although the attitude is starting to show a chance of waning, the truth is that software is simply not valued over hardware.

Raticide 14y ago

Why can't downloaded Wii apps work like iPhone apps? I've never had an issue transferring those to a new device.

Jare 14y ago
How many times have you done that? I recall iDevices had a limit of 5 or so.
- wmf 14y ago
  As long as you unregister each device before it breaks you can stay under the limit indefinitely.
  - arjunnarayan 14y ago
    You can unregister devices even without the devices present, i.e. if they break, like in this situation.
- arrrg 14y ago
  There is no such limit. That only ever applied to media content (if it has DRM). You can install apps on as many devices as you want and redownload them as often as you want. They are bound to your account, not specific devices. If you, for example, set up a new iOS device you can just pick your iCloud backup from another device on startup and your new device will automatically download all your apps from the App Store. Mac App Store apps are similar: You can download them (as often as you want) and use them on as many Macs you own or control. They are bound to your account, not your Mac. (The sole exception might be certain iLife apps like iPhoto that come for free with your Mac. Those might be bound to the specific machine you bought, they might not, I’m not sure.)