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> We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere > Switzerland is not part of SEPA We definit

> We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere > Switzerland is not part of SEPA We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). > I don't understand what they solve. [...] > I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards. You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too.

Pooge 5mo ago
> We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere That is true; I should have said "EEA" or "countries supporting IBAN". > We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). Yes, which is exactly my point. We need it to work for CHF as well. Instant payments are not the norm and in fact UBS is charging for it. > You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too. A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.
- hocuspocus 5mo ago
  This is a false dichotomy. You can have very cheap transaction fees, Pix is state-run and probably operates at a loss, with merchant fees as low as 0.2~0.3%. In comparison the cheapest card payment under the EEA interchange cap is probably slightly above 0.5% when you add scheme fees and PSP costs. However businesses do require payment systems and not just barebones bank transfers. Except for high trust, low volume transactions such as buying a car, paying your rent...
- raron 5mo ago
  > A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men. I disagree with that. Payments (especially online and contactless ones) should have some form of buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction, lost / stolen cards, etc.
  - Pooge 5mo ago
    > buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction There is; it's called a bank.
    - raron 5mo ago
      Maybe that's changes by country, but here bank transfers are basically final and can not be cancelled or recalled. Why would a bank cover your losses from their profits?
    - hocuspocus 5mo ago
      Which has zero incentive to side with the other party. You pay by bank transfer, once the money is on the merchant's account, why would their bank ever agree to a refund in case of dispute? Now it's between you and the merchant, good luck with filing police reports and court claims especially abroad.
      - Pooge 5mo ago
        In Switzerland there are a lot of cases where the bank will actually refund you if it was a fraudulent payment.
        hocuspocus 5mo ago
        Hu, no? The most common scams nowadays involve social engineering to make people log into their online banking and transfer money, specifically because there's no way to revert transactions. The victims are typically 100% liable as they accept and authorize these. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtbihSwrKhk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtbihSwrKhk https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassensturz-espresso/kassensturz/banken-in-der-kritik-cyberbetrug-boomt-aber-banken-lassen-opfer-oft-im-stich https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassensturz-espresso/kassenstur...

Pooge 5mo ago

> We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere That is true; I should have said "EEA" or "countries supporting IBAN". > We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). Yes, which is exactly my point. We need it to work for CHF as well. Instant payments are not the norm and in fact UBS is charging for it. > You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too. A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.

hocuspocus 5mo ago
This is a false dichotomy. You can have very cheap transaction fees, Pix is state-run and probably operates at a loss, with merchant fees as low as 0.2~0.3%. In comparison the cheapest card payment under the EEA interchange cap is probably slightly above 0.5% when you add scheme fees and PSP costs. However businesses do require payment systems and not just barebones bank transfers. Except for high trust, low volume transactions such as buying a car, paying your rent...
raron 5mo ago
> A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men. I disagree with that. Payments (especially online and contactless ones) should have some form of buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction, lost / stolen cards, etc.
- Pooge 5mo ago
  > buyer protection, chargeback and a way to handle fraudulent transaction There is; it's called a bank.
  - raron 5mo ago
    Maybe that's changes by country, but here bank transfers are basically final and can not be cancelled or recalled. Why would a bank cover your losses from their profits?
  - hocuspocus 5mo ago
    Which has zero incentive to side with the other party. You pay by bank transfer, once the money is on the merchant's account, why would their bank ever agree to a refund in case of dispute? Now it's between you and the merchant, good luck with filing police reports and court claims especially abroad.
    - Pooge 5mo ago
      In Switzerland there are a lot of cases where the bank will actually refund you if it was a fraudulent payment.
      - hocuspocus 5mo ago
        Hu, no? The most common scams nowadays involve social engineering to make people log into their online banking and transfer money, specifically because there's no way to revert transactions. The victims are typically 100% liable as they accept and authorize these. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtbihSwrKhk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtbihSwrKhk https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassensturz-espresso/kassensturz/banken-in-der-kritik-cyberbetrug-boomt-aber-banken-lassen-opfer-oft-im-stich https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassensturz-espresso/kassenstur...