8 ms·

Think of it as an investment. The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work, and economic prosperity. Other countries in the EU have also enjoyed econom

Think of it as an investment. The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work, and economic prosperity. Other countries in the EU have also enjoyed economic growth and support over the years. I'm old enough to remember internal borders with passport checks in Europe, before the wall fell and Poland was still on the other side of that. Nice to see them moving on from that. Thanks to the EU free movement of people, I've now studied, worked and lived in four different countries. I know people all over Europe. I currently live in Germany. Germany benefits a lot from the EU. Yes it costs money. But there's trade, access to skilled labour, etc. as well. And if you look at Poland, it's what sits between Germany and Belarus & Ukraine. So, there's a strategic relevance as well. Poland doing fine is good for everyone else in the EU.

shevy-java 6mo ago
The question is not whether it is an investment or whether it is not. The question is whether growth is objective and fair or whether it is not. For comparison of wealth in Poland, ALL net-subsidies would have to be deducted, because this is essentially wealth taken from other countries, and distributed to poorer areas in the EU. I am not disputing that this leads to more growth; I am disputing the "country xyz is now rich" while not even mentioning the subsidies. And that reuters article does not mention that at all. It also has to be mentioned because the crazy bureaucrats in Brussels want to aggressively expand eastwards. They think that the richer areas in the EU need to pay for that expansion. I simply fail to agree with that "logic" at all and I also consider it hugely unfair to richer areas. The richer areas made good decisions; now this is being negated by bureaucrats in Brussels. That is unfair. (This is not meant against Poland, but against the constant expansionistic agenda from Brussels.)
- gmerc 6mo ago
  Economic zones are NOT zero sum.
  - sdwr 6mo ago
    And the EU wants to insulate itself from Russia with friendly, ideologically-compatible countries. Can't put a price tag on safety
    - rob74 6mo ago
      That also works the other way around: Eastern European countries wanted to join the EU (ok, more importantly NATO, but also the EU) to make sure they never ever again slid into Russia's "sphere of influence". Notwithstanding certain populist EU-skeptic right wing parties that don't seem to mind that anymore (some would say because they are financed by Russia), that's generally still true...
  - finghin 6mo ago
    I agree, but people are very weary of these things because of the (correct) belief that their appropriation is guided by unaccountable bureaucrats. It stands in need of justification that Europeans feel they never got to hear
    - dgellow 6mo ago
      > but people are very weary of these things because of the (correct) belief that their appropriation is guided by unaccountable bureaucrats. People believe this because every single member state is using EU institutions as a punching bag whenever they have issues locally. The people have no idea how the EU work, they only hear about it when used as a bogeyman
  - nkmnz 6mo ago
    I agree, but subsidies aren't free as well. Simply making the overall cake bigger doesn't necessarily pay out for everyone - some have to foot the bill.
    - phicoh 6mo ago
      Why not? If the increase in cake size is bigger than the subsidies then it can be a net win, even for the people paying the subsidies. It also ignores the fact that absent the EU, countries would still have a lot of subsidies.
- egeozcan 6mo ago
  [flagged]
- rob74 6mo ago
  OTOH, the more developed EU countries want the less developed countries to be reasonably well-off, so they can keep buying stuff from them. E.g. 56% of Germany's exports went to other EU countries in 2025. And, while Trump and Xi Jin Ping are around, that's only going to become more important...
  - tw1984 6mo ago
    "56% of Germany's exports went to other EU countries in 2025" - because those products are no longer competitive in the open market.
    - rob74 6mo ago
      Yeah, they're so uncompetitive that Trump had to introduce tariffs to keep them out. China is a different topic, but I wouldn't generally call German products uncompetitive...
      - vovavili 6mo ago
        Trump introduced tarrifs because of insane economic and political illiteracy and for no other reason.
      - eska 6mo ago
        The tariffs put on the US by Germany were higher than the other way around in some cases, even though the US wasn’t exporting such products in any significant amount.
- paganel 6mo ago
  The Holocaust was a decision taken by one of the two pillars of the EU, Germany, so countries nowadays being rich or poor has nothing to do with past “good” decisions of those countries populaces. And before anyone commenting that the Holocaust and the German economy are two orthogonal subjects, just look at the corporate history of German industry giants VW and Bayer.
  - eska 6mo ago
    Worse, Germany has one of the worst upward mobility stats in the EU. If you look at the filthy rich families in Germany, most of them have ties to benefitting heavily from WW2.
  - lava_pidgeon 6mo ago
    Neither VW and Bayer are rich because of the Holocaust. They are rich because of good business environment and good corporate decisions after 2nd world war. From a purely economic viewpoint Holocaust and 2nd world war were very very stupid decisions.
lukan 6mo ago
"I'm old enough to remember internal borders with passport checks in Europe" Did you recently crossed borders? On many the checks are there again, because of fear of immigration terrorism or something, so the people could see, politicians were doing something to make them feel safe (but what I could see when passing borders, especially between poland and germany, were looong lines of trucks, so much for free flowing goods). Not sure of the current situation, though, but last summer and autumn was horrible with checks (probably still better than what was before, but having experienced the real open border situation, having them restricted again is frustrating).
- 11mariom 6mo ago
  Not the same extent like it was before… Now most of the times is just slowed down traffic (quick glance who's in car and move on), and more than that I was maybe stopped two times for quick chit-chat (where/why I'm heading). And I crossed, multiple times, borders of DK (they had checks since 2018?), DE, A, IT, CH, CZ… Quick ID check happened once - when I was traveling with bus across border. Back in a days it was a lot, lot slower and more detailed.
  - lukan 6mo ago
    "Back in a days it was a lot, lot slower and more detailed." Oh for sure, I have childhood memories of the really dark time, but it is way worse now, than it was back in 2015. I missed flixbus connections because of intense checks and changed vacation plans avoiding long waiting times at borders within EU (my recommendation, cross at night).
    - Haemm0r 6mo ago
      Flixbus are a primary target for those inspections...
      - archleaf 6mo ago
        Is this something new within the last year? I just travelled on Flixbus across Hungary, Slovakia, and Poland and received no checks. Is it only certain countries?
Forgeties79 6mo ago
> Think of it as an investment. The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work, and economic prosperity. Other countries in the EU have also enjoyed economic growth and support over the years. This is something I tell people I am generally politically/socially align with (liberals/progressives) when they start talking about “handouts for red states.” California and other areas were not developed on their own, they required years of sustained federal investment and interest in the area. It obviously goes without saying that conservatives in the US need to stop demonizing taxes so much for the same reason/they need to recognize that as the some of the largest beneficiaries of federal tax dollars they are cutting their nose to spite their face (I believe Kentucky is still the most subsidized state in the US). All of us should want our states cooperation with the federal government so we can all rise together, and we need to view investing in our neighbors as a collective good.
- totallykvothe 6mo ago
  [flagged]
- PopAlongKid 6mo ago
  >This is something I tell people I am generally politically/socially align with (liberals/progressives) when they start talking about “handouts for red states.” California and other areas were not developed on their own, they required years of sustained federal investment and interest in the area. If they were to ask where you think this "federal investment" funding came from, what would you reply?
  - spiderfarmer 6mo ago
    Preferably your taxes in particular.
  - brookst 6mo ago
    It’s a fair point, but there is a significant difference between investment in infrastructure and education versus just supporting states that are intentionally degrading their infrastructure and education. Upwards spiral versus downwards. Money pours in for both cases, but only one is really an investment.
spwa4 6mo ago
[flagged]
- cgeier 6mo ago
  citation needed
  - paganel 6mo ago
    [flagged]
- paganel 6mo ago
  That’s the thing, Poland got wealthier because it became an extension of German industry, with some IT stuff thrown in. Czechia would have also been in the world’s top 20 had they had a larger population, as they’re even more dependent on said German industry.
  - spwa4 6mo ago
    Well, yeah. I get that being the stupid backwater of a huge capitalist union is still better than communism. However, it's not working out so well for (now mostly ex-)factory workers in Germany. Entire cities are emptying because of this. Leaving the old behind, of course.
    - paganel 6mo ago
      > However, it's not working out so well for (now mostly ex-)factory workers in Germany. I fully agree with this, the whole EU enlargement/post-Cold War thing is insanely complicated from a societal pov, there's no silver bullet, for ever positive you can instantly find a negative just as big etc etc, that's why I find this obsession with EU funds quite besides the point, i.e. because the reality on the ground was, still is, in fact, a lot more complicated. For example in our (Romania's) case EU accession came with even a larger increase in PPP value compared to Poland, but that also came with a huge, huge depopulation problem (neighbouring Bulgaria suffers from the same thing), which cannot be put into PPP numbers. Like I said, positives and negatives.
dwedge 6mo ago
> The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work I don't know. I want to agree with you, but a large part of the economic growth in Poland is off-shoring and cheap tax (~12% on contract) for tech workers. The average tech wage there now is pretty similar to the UK, and I don't really see many startups there - probably in part because of how bureaucratic their business system can be. I don't know if this influx of foreign money from off-shoring and surge in real estate pricing is sustainable or good in the long run. Other than a massive influx of overdevelopment of flats in the cities (sometimes too rushed, I've seen reports of flat blocks subsiding because of cutting corners), I'm not sure where else the increase it.
- Certhas 6mo ago
  Do you have any sources for the claim that a large part of growth is off-shoring? Because that seems extremely implausible, and actually very insulting to the incredible success of Eastern Europe, before and after joining the EU, in closing the gap to Western Europe over the last 3 decades. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?tab=line&country=DEU~GBR~POL~ESP~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...
  - dwedge 6mo ago
    The reason for the growth over different time frames can differ. Anecdotal, but most of the IT people I know from Poland worked for, as they call it, "big corpo" and generally it's offshoring either directly with companies such as DXC/Luxoft or n-ix, or through local offices (Akamai for example). If you look at the average salary in Poland (in general), and the average tech salary + the number of tech workers there, it's easy to say a large part of the GDP is tech. Whether or not it's offshoring is a little less obvious, but I can't think of more than 2 or 3 successful Polish tech companies.
    - cuu508 6mo ago
      What is the average salary, the average tech worker salary, and the number of tech and other workers in Poland?
jari_mustonen 6mo ago
[flagged]
1718627440 6mo ago
> Think of it as an investment. The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work, and economic prosperity. Other countries in the EU have also enjoyed economic growth and support over the years. It is for as long, as the EU exists in its current form. The rise of anti-EU parties in both Poland and Germany makes it a risky investment.
- grey-area 6mo ago
  Thankfully most people have learned from the absolute shambles of Brexit and either of these countries leaving is extremely unlikely.
  - c16 6mo ago
    Have they? https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c1428pev1n0t https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c1428pev1n0t
    - Silhouette 6mo ago
      Be careful about reading too much into that. Our elections yesterday were for local and sometimes regional representatives - not our central national government. The result might still prompt a change in our unpopular Prime Minister but the high vote for Reform won't necessarily translate into voting for them at the next general election. We often see protest votes for alternative parties in local politics and everyone was expecting one this time. Surveys here have been showing a trend towards greater public support for the EU. Its advocates have been pushing for closer integration and even talking of a referendum on rejoining. Although of course this also has to be viewed cautiously because the polls before the Brexit referendum had also pointed towards remaining and one of the biggest fans of the EU recently has been that unpopular PM who might not be in office for much longer.
    - grey-area 6mo ago
      I meant people still in the EU have learned, and laughed, and vowed not to make this mistake. People in the UK, like the US, seem addicted to voting for morons then being surprised when they do the things morons do.
s_dev 6mo ago
>Think of it as an investment. An economic investment as well as one of solidarity. People forget that the EU is a peace project that ensures peace via economic cooperation. This nuance seems trivial but is actually massively important. I can see trust degrading in the US but being fortified across the EU. Look at Hungary recently, they did a 180 not because of Brussels or Berlin saying they should. Hungarians are sceptical of both. However they do trust the Polish people who they see as genuine peers who are very pro-EU.
- truthaboutpl 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - pegasus 6mo ago
    They did a 180 on their relationship with the EU, which was the context GP was discussing. Maybe not 180 but definitely over 90, let's say, unlocking billions in funds. Funny that you picked the one major issue that didn't see a big adjustment, and completely out of context.
    - brabel 6mo ago
      I think the comment was still correct. Very little will change in Hungary with the new government. I think it’s only a matter of time for them to pick a fight with the EU on some different matter given how the EU’s values (considering most of Western Europe) are still far from theirs.
      - s_dev 6mo ago
        >Very little will change in Hungary with the new government. Things aren't going to improve magically in the next few years but the backsliding has stopped, improving things takes real effort and focus. At the end of Orban's regime Hungary is now officially the poorest country in the EU, even behind Bulgaria and Romania which is why so many Hungarians are upset with Orban. I expect their economy to slowly tick upward over the next few years. Magyar has also stated his ambitions to join the Euro which is the opposite of Orban who wanted Hungary to leave the EU.
SilverElfin 6mo ago
I’m not very familiar with deep EU politics. But I’ve heard a lot of complaints from colleagues in countries like Germany and the Netherlands about feeling like their taxes mainly help countries like Poland. While what you’re saying may be true, and this prosperity may be good for all of Europe, I think there is a lot of resentment about who the beneficiaries of the EU structure are.
- mrspuratic 6mo ago
  This is how it works. Ireland was a net beneficiary until 2018, and now it is a net contributor (one of only 10 net contributors). These are decades long investments, Poland joined in 2004. Per capita Poland is not the "greatest" beneficiary but I don't think that will help win any arguments for those already resistant to facts or reasoning. https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/12/09/eu-budget-who-pays-the-most-into-the-eu-and-who-gains-the-most https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/12/09/eu-budget-who-p...
eloisant 6mo ago
Yes, this is an important aspect of the EU, and other countries like Spain and Ireland benefited in the same way. And it's a good thing, but I wish Eastern European countries would recognize this and become more of a team player instead of shitting on EU. Poland waited for Trump 2nd term, threatening the take some of the EU territory by force to finally transition from buying US weapons to buying from other European countries.
jorvi 6mo ago
Okay, but Poland taking all / most of the credit is just strange in that light.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
asdfman123 6mo ago
I wonder if that's part of why the US is a superpower: the richer states being forced to invest in the poorer ones. In the early 20th century Texas for instance was a poor state, a recipient of federal funds, but now it's an economic powerhouse. (To be precise I still think it's a recipient of federal funding but it holds its own now.)
fmajid 6mo ago
Not to mention a stronger economy means stronger defense against the Russian threat.
rdm_blackhole 6mo ago
> I'm old enough to remember internal borders with passport checks in Europe, before the wall fell and Poland was still on the other side of that. Nice to see them moving on from that. Europe is the outlier here. The rest of the world checks your passport when you come in their country because they like to know who comes and who goes for a lot of reasons including public safety, biosecurity and so on. The fact that Europe has basically given up on trying to filter who comes in is not necessarily a model that is desirable for the rest of the world. > Thanks to the EU free movement of people, I've now studied, worked and lived in four different countries. You can do that without Europe as well. Do you think people did not move to another country or studied in another country before the European countries decided to remove borders? What about now with all the students moving to the US/UK/Australia/Canada?

shevy-java 6mo ago

The question is not whether it is an investment or whether it is not. The question is whether growth is objective and fair or whether it is not. For comparison of wealth in Poland, ALL net-subsidies would have to be deducted, because this is essentially wealth taken from other countries, and distributed to poorer areas in the EU. I am not disputing that this leads to more growth; I am disputing the "country xyz is now rich" while not even mentioning the subsidies. And that reuters article does not mention that at all. It also has to be mentioned because the crazy bureaucrats in Brussels want to aggressively expand eastwards. They think that the richer areas in the EU need to pay for that expansion. I simply fail to agree with that "logic" at all and I also consider it hugely unfair to richer areas. The richer areas made good decisions; now this is being negated by bureaucrats in Brussels. That is unfair. (This is not meant against Poland, but against the constant expansionistic agenda from Brussels.)

gmerc 6mo ago
Economic zones are NOT zero sum.
- sdwr 6mo ago
  And the EU wants to insulate itself from Russia with friendly, ideologically-compatible countries. Can't put a price tag on safety
  - rob74 6mo ago
    That also works the other way around: Eastern European countries wanted to join the EU (ok, more importantly NATO, but also the EU) to make sure they never ever again slid into Russia's "sphere of influence". Notwithstanding certain populist EU-skeptic right wing parties that don't seem to mind that anymore (some would say because they are financed by Russia), that's generally still true...
- finghin 6mo ago
  I agree, but people are very weary of these things because of the (correct) belief that their appropriation is guided by unaccountable bureaucrats. It stands in need of justification that Europeans feel they never got to hear
  - dgellow 6mo ago
    > but people are very weary of these things because of the (correct) belief that their appropriation is guided by unaccountable bureaucrats. People believe this because every single member state is using EU institutions as a punching bag whenever they have issues locally. The people have no idea how the EU work, they only hear about it when used as a bogeyman
- nkmnz 6mo ago
  I agree, but subsidies aren't free as well. Simply making the overall cake bigger doesn't necessarily pay out for everyone - some have to foot the bill.
  - phicoh 6mo ago
    Why not? If the increase in cake size is bigger than the subsidies then it can be a net win, even for the people paying the subsidies. It also ignores the fact that absent the EU, countries would still have a lot of subsidies.
egeozcan 6mo ago
[flagged]
rob74 6mo ago
OTOH, the more developed EU countries want the less developed countries to be reasonably well-off, so they can keep buying stuff from them. E.g. 56% of Germany's exports went to other EU countries in 2025. And, while Trump and Xi Jin Ping are around, that's only going to become more important...
- tw1984 6mo ago
  "56% of Germany's exports went to other EU countries in 2025" - because those products are no longer competitive in the open market.
  - rob74 6mo ago
    Yeah, they're so uncompetitive that Trump had to introduce tariffs to keep them out. China is a different topic, but I wouldn't generally call German products uncompetitive...
    - vovavili 6mo ago
      Trump introduced tarrifs because of insane economic and political illiteracy and for no other reason.
    - eska 6mo ago
      The tariffs put on the US by Germany were higher than the other way around in some cases, even though the US wasn’t exporting such products in any significant amount.
paganel 6mo ago
The Holocaust was a decision taken by one of the two pillars of the EU, Germany, so countries nowadays being rich or poor has nothing to do with past “good” decisions of those countries populaces. And before anyone commenting that the Holocaust and the German economy are two orthogonal subjects, just look at the corporate history of German industry giants VW and Bayer.
- eska 6mo ago
  Worse, Germany has one of the worst upward mobility stats in the EU. If you look at the filthy rich families in Germany, most of them have ties to benefitting heavily from WW2.
- lava_pidgeon 6mo ago
  Neither VW and Bayer are rich because of the Holocaust. They are rich because of good business environment and good corporate decisions after 2nd world war. From a purely economic viewpoint Holocaust and 2nd world war were very very stupid decisions.

lukan 6mo ago

"I'm old enough to remember internal borders with passport checks in Europe" Did you recently crossed borders? On many the checks are there again, because of fear of immigration terrorism or something, so the people could see, politicians were doing something to make them feel safe (but what I could see when passing borders, especially between poland and germany, were looong lines of trucks, so much for free flowing goods). Not sure of the current situation, though, but last summer and autumn was horrible with checks (probably still better than what was before, but having experienced the real open border situation, having them restricted again is frustrating).

11mariom 6mo ago
Not the same extent like it was before… Now most of the times is just slowed down traffic (quick glance who's in car and move on), and more than that I was maybe stopped two times for quick chit-chat (where/why I'm heading). And I crossed, multiple times, borders of DK (they had checks since 2018?), DE, A, IT, CH, CZ… Quick ID check happened once - when I was traveling with bus across border. Back in a days it was a lot, lot slower and more detailed.
- lukan 6mo ago
  "Back in a days it was a lot, lot slower and more detailed." Oh for sure, I have childhood memories of the really dark time, but it is way worse now, than it was back in 2015. I missed flixbus connections because of intense checks and changed vacation plans avoiding long waiting times at borders within EU (my recommendation, cross at night).
  - Haemm0r 6mo ago
    Flixbus are a primary target for those inspections...
    - archleaf 6mo ago
      Is this something new within the last year? I just travelled on Flixbus across Hungary, Slovakia, and Poland and received no checks. Is it only certain countries?

Forgeties79 6mo ago

> Think of it as an investment. The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work, and economic prosperity. Other countries in the EU have also enjoyed economic growth and support over the years. This is something I tell people I am generally politically/socially align with (liberals/progressives) when they start talking about “handouts for red states.” California and other areas were not developed on their own, they required years of sustained federal investment and interest in the area. It obviously goes without saying that conservatives in the US need to stop demonizing taxes so much for the same reason/they need to recognize that as the some of the largest beneficiaries of federal tax dollars they are cutting their nose to spite their face (I believe Kentucky is still the most subsidized state in the US). All of us should want our states cooperation with the federal government so we can all rise together, and we need to view investing in our neighbors as a collective good.

totallykvothe 6mo ago
[flagged]
PopAlongKid 6mo ago
>This is something I tell people I am generally politically/socially align with (liberals/progressives) when they start talking about “handouts for red states.” California and other areas were not developed on their own, they required years of sustained federal investment and interest in the area. If they were to ask where you think this "federal investment" funding came from, what would you reply?
- spiderfarmer 6mo ago
  Preferably your taxes in particular.
- brookst 6mo ago
  It’s a fair point, but there is a significant difference between investment in infrastructure and education versus just supporting states that are intentionally degrading their infrastructure and education. Upwards spiral versus downwards. Money pours in for both cases, but only one is really an investment.

spwa4 6mo ago

[flagged]

cgeier 6mo ago
citation needed
- paganel 6mo ago
  [flagged]
paganel 6mo ago
That’s the thing, Poland got wealthier because it became an extension of German industry, with some IT stuff thrown in. Czechia would have also been in the world’s top 20 had they had a larger population, as they’re even more dependent on said German industry.
- spwa4 6mo ago
  Well, yeah. I get that being the stupid backwater of a huge capitalist union is still better than communism. However, it's not working out so well for (now mostly ex-)factory workers in Germany. Entire cities are emptying because of this. Leaving the old behind, of course.
  - paganel 6mo ago
    > However, it's not working out so well for (now mostly ex-)factory workers in Germany. I fully agree with this, the whole EU enlargement/post-Cold War thing is insanely complicated from a societal pov, there's no silver bullet, for ever positive you can instantly find a negative just as big etc etc, that's why I find this obsession with EU funds quite besides the point, i.e. because the reality on the ground was, still is, in fact, a lot more complicated. For example in our (Romania's) case EU accession came with even a larger increase in PPP value compared to Poland, but that also came with a huge, huge depopulation problem (neighbouring Bulgaria suffers from the same thing), which cannot be put into PPP numbers. Like I said, positives and negatives.

dwedge 6mo ago

> The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work I don't know. I want to agree with you, but a large part of the economic growth in Poland is off-shoring and cheap tax (~12% on contract) for tech workers. The average tech wage there now is pretty similar to the UK, and I don't really see many startups there - probably in part because of how bureaucratic their business system can be. I don't know if this influx of foreign money from off-shoring and surge in real estate pricing is sustainable or good in the long run. Other than a massive influx of overdevelopment of flats in the cities (sometimes too rushed, I've seen reports of flat blocks subsiding because of cutting corners), I'm not sure where else the increase it.

Certhas 6mo ago
Do you have any sources for the claim that a large part of growth is off-shoring? Because that seems extremely implausible, and actually very insulting to the incredible success of Eastern Europe, before and after joining the EU, in closing the gap to Western Europe over the last 3 decades. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?tab=line&country=DEU~GBR~POL~ESP~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...
- dwedge 6mo ago
  The reason for the growth over different time frames can differ. Anecdotal, but most of the IT people I know from Poland worked for, as they call it, "big corpo" and generally it's offshoring either directly with companies such as DXC/Luxoft or n-ix, or through local offices (Akamai for example). If you look at the average salary in Poland (in general), and the average tech salary + the number of tech workers there, it's easy to say a large part of the GDP is tech. Whether or not it's offshoring is a little less obvious, but I can't think of more than 2 or 3 successful Polish tech companies.
  - cuu508 6mo ago
    What is the average salary, the average tech worker salary, and the number of tech and other workers in Poland?

jari_mustonen 6mo ago

[flagged]

1718627440 6mo ago

> Think of it as an investment. The rest of the EU also benefits from their hard work, and economic prosperity. Other countries in the EU have also enjoyed economic growth and support over the years. It is for as long, as the EU exists in its current form. The rise of anti-EU parties in both Poland and Germany makes it a risky investment.

grey-area 6mo ago
Thankfully most people have learned from the absolute shambles of Brexit and either of these countries leaving is extremely unlikely.
- c16 6mo ago
  Have they? https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c1428pev1n0t https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c1428pev1n0t
  - Silhouette 6mo ago
    Be careful about reading too much into that. Our elections yesterday were for local and sometimes regional representatives - not our central national government. The result might still prompt a change in our unpopular Prime Minister but the high vote for Reform won't necessarily translate into voting for them at the next general election. We often see protest votes for alternative parties in local politics and everyone was expecting one this time. Surveys here have been showing a trend towards greater public support for the EU. Its advocates have been pushing for closer integration and even talking of a referendum on rejoining. Although of course this also has to be viewed cautiously because the polls before the Brexit referendum had also pointed towards remaining and one of the biggest fans of the EU recently has been that unpopular PM who might not be in office for much longer.
  - grey-area 6mo ago
    I meant people still in the EU have learned, and laughed, and vowed not to make this mistake. People in the UK, like the US, seem addicted to voting for morons then being surprised when they do the things morons do.

s_dev 6mo ago

>Think of it as an investment. An economic investment as well as one of solidarity. People forget that the EU is a peace project that ensures peace via economic cooperation. This nuance seems trivial but is actually massively important. I can see trust degrading in the US but being fortified across the EU. Look at Hungary recently, they did a 180 not because of Brussels or Berlin saying they should. Hungarians are sceptical of both. However they do trust the Polish people who they see as genuine peers who are very pro-EU.

truthaboutpl 6mo ago
[flagged]
- pegasus 6mo ago
  They did a 180 on their relationship with the EU, which was the context GP was discussing. Maybe not 180 but definitely over 90, let's say, unlocking billions in funds. Funny that you picked the one major issue that didn't see a big adjustment, and completely out of context.
  - brabel 6mo ago
    I think the comment was still correct. Very little will change in Hungary with the new government. I think it’s only a matter of time for them to pick a fight with the EU on some different matter given how the EU’s values (considering most of Western Europe) are still far from theirs.
    - s_dev 6mo ago
      >Very little will change in Hungary with the new government. Things aren't going to improve magically in the next few years but the backsliding has stopped, improving things takes real effort and focus. At the end of Orban's regime Hungary is now officially the poorest country in the EU, even behind Bulgaria and Romania which is why so many Hungarians are upset with Orban. I expect their economy to slowly tick upward over the next few years. Magyar has also stated his ambitions to join the Euro which is the opposite of Orban who wanted Hungary to leave the EU.

SilverElfin 6mo ago

I’m not very familiar with deep EU politics. But I’ve heard a lot of complaints from colleagues in countries like Germany and the Netherlands about feeling like their taxes mainly help countries like Poland. While what you’re saying may be true, and this prosperity may be good for all of Europe, I think there is a lot of resentment about who the beneficiaries of the EU structure are.

mrspuratic 6mo ago
This is how it works. Ireland was a net beneficiary until 2018, and now it is a net contributor (one of only 10 net contributors). These are decades long investments, Poland joined in 2004. Per capita Poland is not the "greatest" beneficiary but I don't think that will help win any arguments for those already resistant to facts or reasoning. https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/12/09/eu-budget-who-pays-the-most-into-the-eu-and-who-gains-the-most https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/12/09/eu-budget-who-p...

eloisant 6mo ago

Yes, this is an important aspect of the EU, and other countries like Spain and Ireland benefited in the same way. And it's a good thing, but I wish Eastern European countries would recognize this and become more of a team player instead of shitting on EU. Poland waited for Trump 2nd term, threatening the take some of the EU territory by force to finally transition from buying US weapons to buying from other European countries.

jorvi 6mo ago

Okay, but Poland taking all / most of the credit is just strange in that light.

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asdfman123 6mo ago

I wonder if that's part of why the US is a superpower: the richer states being forced to invest in the poorer ones. In the early 20th century Texas for instance was a poor state, a recipient of federal funds, but now it's an economic powerhouse. (To be precise I still think it's a recipient of federal funding but it holds its own now.)

fmajid 6mo ago

Not to mention a stronger economy means stronger defense against the Russian threat.

rdm_blackhole 6mo ago

> I'm old enough to remember internal borders with passport checks in Europe, before the wall fell and Poland was still on the other side of that. Nice to see them moving on from that. Europe is the outlier here. The rest of the world checks your passport when you come in their country because they like to know who comes and who goes for a lot of reasons including public safety, biosecurity and so on. The fact that Europe has basically given up on trying to filter who comes in is not necessarily a model that is desirable for the rest of the world. > Thanks to the EU free movement of people, I've now studied, worked and lived in four different countries. You can do that without Europe as well. Do you think people did not move to another country or studied in another country before the European countries decided to remove borders? What about now with all the students moving to the US/UK/Australia/Canada?