4 ms·

> Pix is a good local idea, but the world needs something better. There is no problem to continue using maybe Visa/Mastercard when dealing abroad or external,

by bilekas 5mo ago

> Pix is a good local idea, but the world needs something better. There is no problem to continue using maybe Visa/Mastercard when dealing abroad or external, but when you are a normal citizen, it's far better to use Pix in this case, you are supporting a national company, paying fee's to them and not at the whims of an external countries policies. Edit: They also tend to be non profits ironically enough. In Ireland many years ago there was a system called "Laser" which was very similar, the only reason it was changes was for 'convenience' but in reality it was because Visa and MC had taken over all the POS market, and so Laser cards couldn't give cash back. So the banks just folded. I can't wait to see Europe being some competition to the duopoly that is Mastercard and Visa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card)

jangxx 5mo ago
We might be getting something soon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro
- fakedang 5mo ago
  Europe spends way too much time and money on various Fintech pet projects. There's the Digital Euro and then there's Wero and Target and a bunch of other shit that doesn't reach consumer scale usage or attention.
  - lofaszvanitt 5mo ago
    Anything else?
  - bilekas 5mo ago
    And your point is what? That nothing should ever be investigated, trials, or invested in until it has as you call it "consumer scale useage". The EU is not perfect, but these kind of black and white comments highlight why it can be slow to align everyone to get on board with an idea. The empty vessle makes the most noise.
    - fakedang 5mo ago
      No, my point is to focus on one thing and get it done right. The right time to build an EU-wide payments processor was pre-COVID, as is the case with Pix, UPI, WeChat Pay, etc. If developing countries can build one over the course of a decade, what stopped the EU? Project managers and CV padding bureaucrats who really weren't serious about doing a good job. Compare that to the concerted efforts by the central banks in India and Brazil to actually work with the private sector to build out this system. The EU has had the plumbing needed for this since at least 2 decades, yet has not managed to create this.
      - bilekas 5mo ago
        Again, that's a silly argument, when you're saying "It should have been done before" but at the same time saying "Europe spends way too much time and money on various Fintech pet projects." > If developing countries can build one over the course of a decade What countries are you talking about ? The EU countries have some, we also have instant IBAN transfers without any payment processor, we have PCI compliance in all banks to allow it. This feels like another example of you not knowing what you're talking about when you say 'The EU has had the plumbing needed for this since at least 2 decades, yet has not managed to create this.'. The foundations to never rely on payment processors is already there, now we need to remove the dependancy on payments like visa and mastercard because of nescessity. And as someone above posted, it in progress, it will be done standardised across the entire EU, in Brazil, it's one country. Edit : There was also never a demand for it because the EU reasonably assumed it could rely on US partners to cover areas in which the EU didn't focus. Only recently those priorities changed, politics has that effect here of dealing with the most pressing issues and not those that are lobbied for the hardest.
registeredcorn 5mo ago
> in reality it was because Visa and MC had taken over all the POS market Do you happen to have any insight on this? I mean, how is it that one or two companies can manage to squeeze everyone else out so completely? If two big players control Point of Sales (POS), shouldn't someone be able to come in and make a business out of underselling the competition? I would think that smaller overhead means smaller margins are needed. I've talked to small businesses about fees and charges for their POS and they are always thrilled when people pay with cash, because it means they get the full amount. (These conversations have come up because I've run small businesses in the past, and I remember how horrible it felt to "sell" something for $30, only to get like...$5 out of it between fees, taxes, and insurance costs. It seems like every business I've spoken to hates Visa and MasterCard with a passion, so I would think that small business would be thrilled to have a new player. At a guess, I would think that part of(?) the reason may be due to (and rightfully so) whatever regulations are in place to force money transfer companies into meeting certain security ratings or whatever. Even so, surely there are people that are willing to fight for a piece of the action, right? It seems crazy to me that no one else sees that as an opportunity to do it better. I'd really like it if fees for small-to-medium businesses could be dropped entirely, and it was only the major players that offset the costs for everyone else.
- hulitu 5mo ago
  > how is it that one or two companies can manage to squeeze everyone else out so completely? Like everywhere: lobby and corruption. Works like a charm. Being based in the "World policeman" also helps.
  - registeredcorn 5mo ago
    Do you mean that they have lobbied virtually all countries though, or what? I don't understand how they can be so dominant on a kind of global scale. I suppose there may be some places where they are not (I.e. North Korea, and a few other outliers) but I would assume they do have a certain amount of broad, global reach. Have they really just managed to bribe/make "friends" with (almost) every country on the planet?
- 5mo ago
janpeuker 5mo ago
Europe already has plenty of alternative card systems e.g. France's Cartes Bancaires (CB) and ironically Germany just last year turned it's Girocard/Maestro system off in favour of Visa/Mastercard; the problem is the banks in individual countries in Europe are not willing to give up their control in favour of a compatible standard.
- hermanzegerman 5mo ago
  Germany didn't turn off Girocard that's just fake News. I literally paid yesterday using Girocard. It also works with some big German retailers outside of Germany (like with Billa in Austria which is a subsidiary of Rewe Group) Maestro and Visa just stopped offering Maestro/V-Pay so they can charge the higher fees vor Visa/MasterCard. The only thing that changed is the Co-Badge on most Girocards
- bilekas 5mo ago
  > the problem is the banks in individual countries in Europe are not willing to give up their control in favour of a compatible standard Well this is flat out wrong. Every countries banking system pays fees for processing visa and MasterCard. When there is a viable alternative in place with less fees, the bank like any money making enterprise will take it. Framing it as "countries" blocking it demonstrates you either have an agenda against EU or you're not sure how the EU works.

by bilekas 5mo ago

jangxx 5mo ago

We might be getting something soon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro

fakedang 5mo ago
Europe spends way too much time and money on various Fintech pet projects. There's the Digital Euro and then there's Wero and Target and a bunch of other shit that doesn't reach consumer scale usage or attention.
- lofaszvanitt 5mo ago
  Anything else?
- bilekas 5mo ago
  And your point is what? That nothing should ever be investigated, trials, or invested in until it has as you call it "consumer scale useage". The EU is not perfect, but these kind of black and white comments highlight why it can be slow to align everyone to get on board with an idea. The empty vessle makes the most noise.
  - fakedang 5mo ago
    No, my point is to focus on one thing and get it done right. The right time to build an EU-wide payments processor was pre-COVID, as is the case with Pix, UPI, WeChat Pay, etc. If developing countries can build one over the course of a decade, what stopped the EU? Project managers and CV padding bureaucrats who really weren't serious about doing a good job. Compare that to the concerted efforts by the central banks in India and Brazil to actually work with the private sector to build out this system. The EU has had the plumbing needed for this since at least 2 decades, yet has not managed to create this.
    - bilekas 5mo ago
      Again, that's a silly argument, when you're saying "It should have been done before" but at the same time saying "Europe spends way too much time and money on various Fintech pet projects." > If developing countries can build one over the course of a decade What countries are you talking about ? The EU countries have some, we also have instant IBAN transfers without any payment processor, we have PCI compliance in all banks to allow it. This feels like another example of you not knowing what you're talking about when you say 'The EU has had the plumbing needed for this since at least 2 decades, yet has not managed to create this.'. The foundations to never rely on payment processors is already there, now we need to remove the dependancy on payments like visa and mastercard because of nescessity. And as someone above posted, it in progress, it will be done standardised across the entire EU, in Brazil, it's one country. Edit : There was also never a demand for it because the EU reasonably assumed it could rely on US partners to cover areas in which the EU didn't focus. Only recently those priorities changed, politics has that effect here of dealing with the most pressing issues and not those that are lobbied for the hardest.

registeredcorn 5mo ago

> in reality it was because Visa and MC had taken over all the POS market Do you happen to have any insight on this? I mean, how is it that one or two companies can manage to squeeze everyone else out so completely? If two big players control Point of Sales (POS), shouldn't someone be able to come in and make a business out of underselling the competition? I would think that smaller overhead means smaller margins are needed. I've talked to small businesses about fees and charges for their POS and they are always thrilled when people pay with cash, because it means they get the full amount. (These conversations have come up because I've run small businesses in the past, and I remember how horrible it felt to "sell" something for $30, only to get like...$5 out of it between fees, taxes, and insurance costs. It seems like every business I've spoken to hates Visa and MasterCard with a passion, so I would think that small business would be thrilled to have a new player. At a guess, I would think that part of(?) the reason may be due to (and rightfully so) whatever regulations are in place to force money transfer companies into meeting certain security ratings or whatever. Even so, surely there are people that are willing to fight for a piece of the action, right? It seems crazy to me that no one else sees that as an opportunity to do it better. I'd really like it if fees for small-to-medium businesses could be dropped entirely, and it was only the major players that offset the costs for everyone else.

hulitu 5mo ago
> how is it that one or two companies can manage to squeeze everyone else out so completely? Like everywhere: lobby and corruption. Works like a charm. Being based in the "World policeman" also helps.
- registeredcorn 5mo ago
  Do you mean that they have lobbied virtually all countries though, or what? I don't understand how they can be so dominant on a kind of global scale. I suppose there may be some places where they are not (I.e. North Korea, and a few other outliers) but I would assume they do have a certain amount of broad, global reach. Have they really just managed to bribe/make "friends" with (almost) every country on the planet?
5mo ago

janpeuker 5mo ago

Europe already has plenty of alternative card systems e.g. France's Cartes Bancaires (CB) and ironically Germany just last year turned it's Girocard/Maestro system off in favour of Visa/Mastercard; the problem is the banks in individual countries in Europe are not willing to give up their control in favour of a compatible standard.

hermanzegerman 5mo ago
Germany didn't turn off Girocard that's just fake News. I literally paid yesterday using Girocard. It also works with some big German retailers outside of Germany (like with Billa in Austria which is a subsidiary of Rewe Group) Maestro and Visa just stopped offering Maestro/V-Pay so they can charge the higher fees vor Visa/MasterCard. The only thing that changed is the Co-Badge on most Girocards
bilekas 5mo ago
> the problem is the banks in individual countries in Europe are not willing to give up their control in favour of a compatible standard Well this is flat out wrong. Every countries banking system pays fees for processing visa and MasterCard. When there is a viable alternative in place with less fees, the bank like any money making enterprise will take it. Framing it as "countries" blocking it demonstrates you either have an agenda against EU or you're not sure how the EU works.