4 ms·

You expel them and they become another person's problem. I heard recently of a local problem child aged seven. He's already been expelled from a private school

You expel them and they become another person's problem. I heard recently of a local problem child aged seven. He's already been expelled from a private school but has entered a state school where he seriously injured another pupil and attempted to strangle one of the teachers. Expulsion isn't going to reform them, it will just move it on elsewhere.

21asdffdsa12 6mo ago
So directly to prison. Or must they succeed first?
- frereubu 6mo ago
  I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse / sarcastic, but even aside from the ethical considerations here, prison is an insanely expensive way of dealing with the issue. In the US in 2010, cost per inmate per year in a state prison ranges between $14,603 (Kentucky) and $60,076 (New York), and averages at $31,286. That's 16 years ago, so it'll be higher now. In the UK it was an average of £32,315 in 2020-21. You might as well employ an individual case worker, and the societal outcomes would be a hell of lot better.
  - nephihaha 6mo ago
    I was quoted a figure of approx. £200,000 per year for each patient at the Royal Edinburgh Hospital by someone who works there but I can't vouch for it. I know someone who has been in there a year. :( Carstairs, where violent psychiatric patients go, is probably even more.
    - frereubu 6mo ago
      Sorry to hear that - I knew someone who was sectioned in the Royal Edinburgh about 30 years ago now. A really difficult place to visit emotionally. I can believe it's expensive given the kinds of difficulties the patients are experiencing.
      - nephihaha 6mo ago
        Yes, it's some place. There are buildings lying empty (one had a Legionnaires' scare recently), and the grounds could be better but are run down. There are some mature trees that look good, but the bowling green has been ripped up as well. Morningside is a good area which is a mixed blessing as it means it may end up being developed. As one of my friends remarked to me it's not a healing environment. The staff there, in my limited experience, vary a lot in their attitude. Some of them are great. Some not so much. It depends who you are dealing with.
leereeves 6mo ago
> expel them and they become another person's problem True, but we have institutions dedicated to dealing with people like that. A school isn't that kind of institution and will fail in its mission (to protect and educate) if it tries to fill the role of controlling violent people.
- nephihaha 6mo ago
  Schools make some of these issues worse. They are riddled with bullying, and until recently made little accomodation to people with learning or social disabilities.
threethirtytwo 6mo ago
No this is not true. Expulsion works in many cases. The idea of getting expelled prevents a lot of problems. A lot of people avoid doing things that will get them expelled but this of course doesn't apply to everyone including the person in your example. It's similar to how prison is a deterrent to crime. But it doesn't change the fact that there are people who still do crimes and get into prison.
- nephihaha 6mo ago
  Many unruly pupils have trouble at home, impoverished backgrounds, dyslexia, autism, social anxiety and a host of other things. Expelling them solves none of these things. They may be bullies themselves because of an ongoing toxic culture in the school. That can include the teachers in some cases, who are some of the worst bullies in there. I had one who persecuted me for a speech impediment and humiliated me in front of an entire class of children by making me say tongue twisters.
  - JCTheDenthog 6mo ago
    [dead]
  - threethirtytwo 6mo ago
    >It's similar to how prison is a deterrent to crime. But it doesn't change the fact that there are people who still do crimes and get into prison. None of what you said contradicts the above.

21asdffdsa12 6mo ago

So directly to prison. Or must they succeed first?

frereubu 6mo ago
I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse / sarcastic, but even aside from the ethical considerations here, prison is an insanely expensive way of dealing with the issue. In the US in 2010, cost per inmate per year in a state prison ranges between $14,603 (Kentucky) and $60,076 (New York), and averages at $31,286. That's 16 years ago, so it'll be higher now. In the UK it was an average of £32,315 in 2020-21. You might as well employ an individual case worker, and the societal outcomes would be a hell of lot better.
- nephihaha 6mo ago
  I was quoted a figure of approx. £200,000 per year for each patient at the Royal Edinburgh Hospital by someone who works there but I can't vouch for it. I know someone who has been in there a year. :( Carstairs, where violent psychiatric patients go, is probably even more.
  - frereubu 6mo ago
    Sorry to hear that - I knew someone who was sectioned in the Royal Edinburgh about 30 years ago now. A really difficult place to visit emotionally. I can believe it's expensive given the kinds of difficulties the patients are experiencing.
    - nephihaha 6mo ago
      Yes, it's some place. There are buildings lying empty (one had a Legionnaires' scare recently), and the grounds could be better but are run down. There are some mature trees that look good, but the bowling green has been ripped up as well. Morningside is a good area which is a mixed blessing as it means it may end up being developed. As one of my friends remarked to me it's not a healing environment. The staff there, in my limited experience, vary a lot in their attitude. Some of them are great. Some not so much. It depends who you are dealing with.

leereeves 6mo ago

> expel them and they become another person's problem True, but we have institutions dedicated to dealing with people like that. A school isn't that kind of institution and will fail in its mission (to protect and educate) if it tries to fill the role of controlling violent people.

nephihaha 6mo ago
Schools make some of these issues worse. They are riddled with bullying, and until recently made little accomodation to people with learning or social disabilities.

threethirtytwo 6mo ago

No this is not true. Expulsion works in many cases. The idea of getting expelled prevents a lot of problems. A lot of people avoid doing things that will get them expelled but this of course doesn't apply to everyone including the person in your example. It's similar to how prison is a deterrent to crime. But it doesn't change the fact that there are people who still do crimes and get into prison.

nephihaha 6mo ago
Many unruly pupils have trouble at home, impoverished backgrounds, dyslexia, autism, social anxiety and a host of other things. Expelling them solves none of these things. They may be bullies themselves because of an ongoing toxic culture in the school. That can include the teachers in some cases, who are some of the worst bullies in there. I had one who persecuted me for a speech impediment and humiliated me in front of an entire class of children by making me say tongue twisters.
- JCTheDenthog 6mo ago
  [dead]
- threethirtytwo 6mo ago
  >It's similar to how prison is a deterrent to crime. But it doesn't change the fact that there are people who still do crimes and get into prison. None of what you said contradicts the above.