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I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing

I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. I've spent three months earlier this year in Brazil and never used Pix once. Not because I didn't want, but because I couldn't, or let's be honest: my time was not worth the hassle. To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID). Then to open a bank account, mostly local banks only accept Pix, with which you can tie your CPF. It's possible but it's definitely not straightforward the slightest. All the while Visa and Mastercard work everywhere in the country, I almost never had to pay in cash, even some sellers in the streets accepted regular credit cards. Pix is certainly great, but locally only, and if every country comes with its own system and Visa or Mastercard disappear, we are going to go back to how people used to travel 50 years ago: with a lot of USD bank notes hidden in your hotel room or elsewhere ... Pix is a good local idea, but the world needs something better.

melting_snow 5mo ago
> but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same This is happening right now in Europe. You have systems like Blik, Twint, Swish etc. I know that at least Blik is working on making it possible for international payments.
- alexaholic 5mo ago
  > I know that at least Blik is working on making it possible for international payments International transfers between MB Way (PT) and Bizum (ES) are working e.g. via phone number. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance
- ginko 5mo ago
  What's needed in Europe is federation of the existing systems, not one winner taking it all.
  - nolok 5mo ago
    That's exactly what's happening, see the EU digital euro scheme. It's planned to be free of fees too, modeled around how SEPA was done for wires. There has been massive resistance by the incumbents of course, including banks (since they too charge a fee on top of visa). It's been in the backlog for years but the US sanction against ICC judges leading to them being cut off from most things including payment triggered a renewal of it.
    - 202508042147 5mo ago
      That's what I am afraid of. The resistance from the incumbents plus the external pressure from the US (and China?) might be to strong. Better go with a federated approach, mandating all the different payment apps available all over the EU to allow connections from other participants. In any case, the digital euro seems to take years (earlier expected date is 2029). I don't understand why it takes so long.
      - bobthepanda 5mo ago
        It seems right now the European thinking is that the US might just do it regardless so may as well prepare.
    - cassepipe 5mo ago
      From what I remember the bank started to federate around a payment network to outcompete the digital euro. I hope the digital euro wins, I hope they don't fumble it.
    - janpeuker 5mo ago
      The European Payments Initiative (Wero) made the mistake of only aiming for Peer-to-Peer QR code payments, carefully avoiding competing with cards so each country could keep their card schemes (Cartes Bancaires, Girocard etc). I don't think it will ever even _compete_ with cards in the near future.
  - markvdb 5mo ago
    EPA [0] and EPI [1] are doing that. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Initiative [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance
- kakacik 5mo ago
  Twint is in Switzerland for more than 10 years, hardly a new idea
  - 202508042147 5mo ago
    Twint is great, I wish more Swiss based people would use it. In the expat community most are using Visa/MC through Apple Pay. I have no idea why.
  - hocuspocus 5mo ago
    Swish is even older. The issues with Twint: - Switzerland hasn't gotten Apple to open up NFC payments at the same conditions as the EEE, at least not yet. - Twint is part of the EMPSA which hasn't really delivered anything tangible. On the contrary there's now a real push from EPI and EuroPA to make Wero interoperable with non-Eurozone networks. Hopefully Twint will get on board too. - Transaction fees are on the higher side, consequently merchants don't have any reason to push Twint or disincentive debit card payments.
    - madspindel 5mo ago
      > Twint is part of the EMPSA which hasn't really delivered anything tangible. It's easy to see why. Both Swish and Vipps is part of EMPSA. In Sweden, everyone uses Swish. Vipps (from Norway I believe) wants to expand to Sweden but no one is using it since it's not compatible with Swish. So making it compatible would potentially hurt the business of Swish. Regulation is needed. Otherwise it will never happen.
      - hocuspocus 5mo ago
        If EPI / Wero reach a critical mass then hopefully this will change, as non-Eurozone countries will have a direct interest in making the local mobile payment solution accept the one used by an area of 350+ million people. Then the EPI protocol could become the least common denominator and you might be able to use Vipps, Twint, Blik... in Sweden? I believe similar scenarios are happening in Asia around Alipay and UPI, for instance I think I can use the Korean Kakao Pay on a payment terminal in Japan, because both sides are compatible with Alipay+.
- BrandiATMuhkuh 5mo ago
  since the end of last year we have had instant payment in the EU. no more need for Mastercard/VISA. what I see missing is education. That's why I'm telling each merchant I come bye to use it. super simple.
someonenice 5mo ago
There is India's UPI (launched in 2016), Singapore PayNow (Launched 2017) that works in a similar way. And they also work across each platform.. UPI users in India can transfer to Paynow users in Singapore and vice versa. [1] https://www.dbs.com.sg/personal/deposits/pay-with-ease/paynow/paynow-upi https://www.dbs.com.sg/personal/deposits/pay-with-ease/payno...
- lmz 5mo ago
  some UPI users to some Paynow users. (limited to participating institutions only).
- gmerc 5mo ago
  Thailand Promptpay is federated too, as are some Japanese services.
SomeUserName432 5mo ago
> To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID). There are third party apps you can use to pay with pix using a credit card, can't recall that name, but read about it here a few months back, on another pix-thread. > CPF (Brazilian Tax ID). Then to open a bank account Getting a CPF is absolutely trivial, but I'm not sure you can open a bank account without RN/RNE, at least not with local banks. Can probably manage with one of the online banks.
- somewhatgoated 5mo ago
  I think you need a RN/RNM to open a bank account even with online banks - I haven’t tried all of them of course so there might be some that work with cpf only
- trollbridge 5mo ago
  For comparison, one does not need need to get US tax ID number to use a Visa card.
  - bleepblap 5mo ago
    Calling a CPF a "tax ID" is a bit misleading, much like calling an SSN "the way you get social security benefits". You can (even as a non-citizen) get one in a couple mins at the post office, and it's used for literally everything, including things like buying a SIM card or registering for some public WiFi hotspots.
    - trollbridge 5mo ago
      Okay, that's quite a bit less bureaucratic than American EIN, ITIN, or SSN (collectively known as TINs). How many digits/letters long is it? One problem with American TINs is the entire space is only a billion digits, so it's not possible to assign one to every person in the world. If we could add two more digits or make 3 alphanumeric, it would be a lot more feasible to do this, but that is basically impossible at this point.
      - 5mo ago
cess11 5mo ago
"we are going to go back to how people used to travel 50 years ago: with a lot of USD bank notes hidden in your hotel room or elsewhere ..." Who did that? Most people except for criminals and refugees used traveller's cheques: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller%27s_cheque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller%27s_cheque I think some banks, like AmEx, still issue them.
- spwa4 5mo ago
  People did that? I took one look at the fees and ... "no thank you", and took cash.
  - rescbr 5mo ago
    Yeah, if I wanted to pay the crazy spread on currency exchange, I’d use my credit card instead. 10 years ago I was still traveling with a bunch of $100 banknotes and reading blogs to find the most honest shady currency exchange place with good rates wherever I went. Fun times! I even paid for two! iPhones in cash back then! Today? I just stop by an ATM and withdraw some cash, everything else goes contactless on Wise.
  - bombcar 5mo ago
    We always got traveler’s checks from AAA which were “free”.
    - skeeter2020 5mo ago
      I assume the quotes because maybe no transaction fee but massive spread on the exchange!
      - bombcar 5mo ago
        Well it was dollars for dollars so they really were free (except for the AAA membership). International money exchange has always been fun, luckily for us we never really travelled anywhere that you couldn't just use dollars.
  - 5mo ago
Zardoz84 5mo ago
on Europe there is talks about using Spanish's Bizum as the oficial European replacement for Visa/MasterCard
- M95D 5mo ago
  It's not a replacement until they issue cards that work without a phone.
  - fn-mote 5mo ago
    Frankly, the number of people that care about no-phone functionality is tiny. I bet the greatest preference is the other way: the ability to use it without a physical card. Everyone has a phone. Of course you need a backup at some point, but it’s just that: a backup.
    - andrepd 5mo ago
      The stated objective of this initiative is to break free of the American Mastercard/Visa duopoly. It would be pretty fucking stupid that if replacement required the use of the American Apple/Google duopoly! Convenience of use with your phone is one thing. Requiring a (locked-down, attestated) phone to create an account is another thing entirely.
    - skeeter2020 5mo ago
      no doubt that is a top FEATURE request, but why do all this work to transfer the system from a US finance oligopoly to a US tech oligopoly?
    - whatevaa 5mo ago
      Android and IOS are controlled by US companies. And both google and apple can ban you for no reason.
      - brabel 5mo ago
        Touché! Freeing oneself from America is nearly impossible. Unless you’re China, probably.
is_true 5mo ago
You don't need a brazilian tax ID to use PIX, I've used it from MercadoPago from another country and there are a lot of options to use it besides MP.
- WinstonSmith84 5mo ago
  Well .. How did you register to MercadoPago? I never was able when I was in Argentina (end of last year). It also asked me for some official IDs in Argentina which is even harder to get than a CPF (or probably impossible as a non-resident, I didn't bother at that point)
  - is_true 5mo ago
    With MP you need an official ID, but there are some crypto apps that have pix and allow to register with a passport.
vitorbaptistaa 5mo ago
> To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID). It's not ideal, but you can use Wise to pay using Pix and India's UPI. You simply transfer the money from your local bank account to Wise and they transfer to whatever Pix you tell. It's almost instant. Meanwhile, there are talks about integrating these systems. This is the obvious long-term game, a clear threat to Visa and MasterCard. Right now in Brazil the only advantages of using a regular credit card are the cashbacks and convenience to use contactless. The convenience is going away -- Pix now supports contactless payment, but it's not widely accepted yet.
- Antirust3743 5mo ago
  Wise remains one of the worst professional support experiences I've ever had at my company and would highly advise people not to use them.
  - somewhatgoated 5mo ago
    What is a better alternative in your experience?
  - noelwelsh 5mo ago
    In contrast, I had great support the one time I contacted them. Have used them in business and personally across a number of different accounts with no problems.
    - swat535 5mo ago
      The problem with these fintech companies, is that they work great right up until you randomly get banned. They then they decide to keep your money for months. At that point, have fun getting it back unless you send a letter from your lawyers.
- kspacewalk2 5mo ago
  Another advantage is anti-fraud measures and remedy (chargebacks). This (BTW clearly AI-generated) article mentions some fraud thing they're working on (Special Refund Mechanism), so we'll see how long it takes for that to take effect. For now, I'll be using our Canadian not-quite-Pix called Interac to pay small amounts of money to people I trust, but I won't any time soon be buying a fridge with it, or booking a week-long cottage stay on a website I've never used before.
throwaw12 5mo ago
Europe is already moving towards having own payment system with Wero
- Shoue 5mo ago
  Wero is a private effort, the digital euro is closer to Pix but it keeps being stalled (given the article in question, one could make some guesses as to why).
- embedding-shape 5mo ago
  Most European countries I frequent already have their own local equivalent to Pix. In Spain almost everyone has Bizum, and not uncommon for vendors at markets to accept it too, Sweden has Swish which is the same deal for the Swedes. I think this lists the most prominent ones that are in wide usage today already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Mobile_Payment_Systems_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Mobile_Payment_System... Apparently, some of these already have interoperability between each other too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance), happy to learn I can now send/receive money to/from my Portuguese brethren :)
  - anthk 5mo ago
    Since May the 5th most shops will begin integrating Bizum within their payments systems. In Spanish: https://cincodias.elpais.com/companias/2026-04-01/a-partir-de-mayo-podras-pagar-con-bizum-en-los-comercios-desde-tu-movil.html https://cincodias.elpais.com/companias/2026-04-01/a-partir-d...
    - embedding-shape 5mo ago
      Since the Bizum became widespread, depending on the size of the business, some always did accept Bizum if you ask nicely :)
  - brabel 5mo ago
    Would be amazing for me to use Swish to pay for things in Brazil as if I had Pix! Could that work somehow?
bilekas 5mo ago
> Pix is a good local idea, but the world needs something better. There is no problem to continue using maybe Visa/Mastercard when dealing abroad or external, but when you are a normal citizen, it's far better to use Pix in this case, you are supporting a national company, paying fee's to them and not at the whims of an external countries policies. Edit: They also tend to be non profits ironically enough. In Ireland many years ago there was a system called "Laser" which was very similar, the only reason it was changes was for 'convenience' but in reality it was because Visa and MC had taken over all the POS market, and so Laser cards couldn't give cash back. So the banks just folded. I can't wait to see Europe being some competition to the duopoly that is Mastercard and Visa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card)
- jangxx 5mo ago
  We might be getting something soon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro
  - fakedang 5mo ago
    Europe spends way too much time and money on various Fintech pet projects. There's the Digital Euro and then there's Wero and Target and a bunch of other shit that doesn't reach consumer scale usage or attention.
    - lofaszvanitt 5mo ago
      Anything else?
    - bilekas 5mo ago
      And your point is what? That nothing should ever be investigated, trials, or invested in until it has as you call it "consumer scale useage". The EU is not perfect, but these kind of black and white comments highlight why it can be slow to align everyone to get on board with an idea. The empty vessle makes the most noise.
jmyeet 5mo ago
> I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. Oh they absolutely will. And the US government will come to their aid. Consider the case of Bombardier [1], a Canadian airplane manufacturer. Boeing was caught with its pants down by Airbus with the A320/321 and panicked into making the 737MAX. Boeing has a captive audience with US airlines and the 737. A shared type rating is a massive advantage for Boeing but the economics of the Airbus narrow bodies were just too good. Then along comes this Canadian companiy who saw an opportunity to create a narrow body commercial jet in this range (100-150 seats) and some US airlines were interested. To avoid this Boeing offered United a deep discount to not buy the CSeries and Bombardier responded with discounts of their own. What happened? Boeing then went to the government and accused Bombardier of "dumping" as well as having goavernment subsidies. This is particularly funny if you know anything about the billions in subsidies Boeing gets from both Washington state and the federal government. The US governments made complaitns to the WTO and ended up imposing a 300% tariff on Bombardier, effectively killing that business. It eventually became the Airbus A220. Free markets, by the way. The US will punish foreign companies for competing on price by abusing process and treaties, ignoring it whne it's inconvenient, use tariffs with flimsy excuses, punish unrelated industries to apply pressure and otherwise bully other countries for daring to compoete. Being American companies is unacceptable. So is doing anything that serve as a model to any other country that might threaten an American monopoly or oligopoly. So prepare for accusations of government subsidies and the US applying pressure in unrelated areas because of this. As an aside, the US does this with governments too. "Oh, you wanted to profit from your own natural resources and use that money for the benefit of the people? I think not. Look at this system of government that isn't working. Nevermind that we're starving it with brutal economic sanctions. It doesn't work. Look away. Nothing to see here." [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Boeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Bo...
- brabel 5mo ago
  Lovely how China is now beating the Americans in their own game. And the reaction is predictable: accuse the Chinese of being a threat to National Security and stop them from taking over the American market after they have already taken most of the rest of the world. Eventually, Americans will be the ones paying the price for the overly protectionist policies of their government.
Hernanpm 5mo ago
Other countries adopting it is already happening. I live in Bolivia, and a few events made QR payment systems widely used across the country. I have family in Peru, and it is a similar case with Yape, another QR payment system. In Bolivia, fintech companies also offer integration with Pix in Brazil without the need for a CPF to send and receive payments. Since we are neighbors, this is very handy.
lucasban 5mo ago
They can federate the systems, I know Singapore’s PayNow connects to Malaysia and Thailands systems
abdullahkhalids 5mo ago
China's UnionPay and AliPay are to various extents are integrated with the systems in Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia [1]. Each country has its own system, but integrates with others. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/china-indonesia-have-launched-a-qr-payment-system-that-skips-the-us-dollar/ar-AA22np3W https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/china-indonesia-have...
- bobthepanda 5mo ago
  UnionPay and AliPay are more akin to Visa and Mastercard than Pix.
wslh 5mo ago
> Pix is certainly great, but locally only, Pix is no local as a user, you can use it without a CPF: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48053527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48053527>.
bobthepanda 5mo ago
Does Pix have an equivalent of a prepay debit card? That seems like the most logical easy setup. If you must have integration with identity, just tie it to whatever visa or proof of arrival. Last I went to Mexico they were issuing QR codes for inbound travelers.
3x35r22m4u 5mo ago
I wonder if I showed up (as a foreign visiting) in the US how long it would take and what kind of documents would it take to have a Visa/Mastercard. I guess it would be the same as having or even longer to have your CPF issued and a digital account here in Brazil.
rpgbr 5mo ago
Pix isn't intended (yet) for foreigners to use. It's mostly for local Brazilians, and here it's brilliant: free for personal use, really fast (frequently instantaneous, has a 10 second limit), and accessible (every major bank and most of the smaller ones supports it). I can understand why Visa and Mastercard are worried. Apple is as well, since it refuses to support Pix in Apple Pay, which is mandatory in Brazil. But honestly? Fuck these companies. (Sorry about my French, I couldn't think of another way to put it.)
- Schiendelman 5mo ago
  Have they said "we refuse" or could it be that they have other priorities that come first?
  - benoau 5mo ago
    They were facing fines [1] for blocking usage of NFC a year ago and are still [2] fighting integration, so pretty explicit refusal. [1] https://www.macobserver.com/news/brazils-antitrust-authority-moves-to-penalize-apple-over-ios-payment-restrictions/ https://www.macobserver.com/news/brazils-antitrust-authority... [2] https://9to5mac.com/2026/02/19/apple-accuses-brazilian-banks-of-seeking-a-free-ride-in-nfc-probe/ https://9to5mac.com/2026/02/19/apple-accuses-brazilian-banks...
malvim 5mo ago
Lots of countries around Brazil are taking pix. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay. And you can totally expand the idea. The fact that you need national id for pix doesn’t mean the idea “doesn’t scale.” It means the current implementation of it is not focused on use by visitors. I really don’t understand what you’re getting at, it seems like a pretty narrow view of the possibilities. Meanwhile US citizens are using paper (cash and cheques) for lots of transactions. Or one of the big credit card corporations.
IG_Semmelweiss 5mo ago
I actually see it as quite worrysome. This would crowd out competition, but then gives full monopoly of payments to the local government. If you are say a political outcast, there's a single point of failure in getting debanked. Not good. I do like processing fees down, but definitely not at the cost of creating a single point of failure with power over the entire population.
- schubidubiduba 5mo ago
  Visa and Mastercard already are a single point of failure (see e.g. the French judge that cannot use it anymore because the US government did not like it when he did his job). This way, there'll be at least two points of failure.
kwanbix 5mo ago
VISA an MasterCard have Credit Cards. Pix is just a way to transfer money you have in your bank account. In europe we can do that with IBAN. It goes from one account to another. In Argentina we have something similar in all banks. What is unike from VISA and MasteCard, at least untill now, is the Credit part of it.
janpeuker 5mo ago
Lots of other Asian countries already did something similar, e.g. Singapore had PayNow QR Codes (probably the closest to Pix) since 2017, Thai PromptPay was even earlier and India UPI (slightly different wallet system) since 2016. China was even earlier but different though private superapps. What has changed, and I find interesting, is that Card rails are more and more used for political pressure [1], and I feel the "American hemisphere" is probably the reason Pix gets more of this pressure than Asian countries. 1) https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-sanctions-against-judges-and-deputy-prosecutors https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-san...
pjg 5mo ago
There is nothing preventing PIX from going global (just like VISA/MC). If you look at the history of domestic systems e.g. China Unipay, India UPI/Rupay, Japan JCB they started off as local systems and went global. Japan JCB is Internationally accepted. China Unipay is also considerably "international" i.e. internationally accepted and India's UPI/Rupay card is adding new countries at a fast clip. The reason most people "don't know" whether they can pay with China Unipay or India's Rupay is because they are not advertised with the same logos as VISA/MC on acceptance sites. However both China Unipay and India's Rupay through their partnership with Discover Card (now owned by CapitalOne ) are accepted anywhere Discover card is accepted The place where these "domestic" systems haven't quite measured up to VISA/MC is the issuing side i.e. the entities controlling these systems currently do not allow foreign banks to issue cards with their logos or use their network to settle the transactions. If you're in the US, you may not get a Unipay or Rupay card from a local bank. There are multiple reasons for that, some strategic some political. It will be interesting to see how they evolve over time. In spite of the exponential rise of PIX , UPI and Unipay, VISA and MC themselves have been doing remarkably well in the past 10-20 years. Unlikely either of them will go belly up.
sfifs 5mo ago
Visa and Master have basically lost the enormous India market outside of credit card business when UPI was more or less mandated by the Indian Reserve Bank and really took off during COVID. Now these regional payment networks are starting to be interconnected like UPI with Singapore's NETS etc. This must be driving intense paranoia among payment networks.

melting_snow 5mo ago

> but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same This is happening right now in Europe. You have systems like Blik, Twint, Swish etc. I know that at least Blik is working on making it possible for international payments.

alexaholic 5mo ago
> I know that at least Blik is working on making it possible for international payments International transfers between MB Way (PT) and Bizum (ES) are working e.g. via phone number. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance
ginko 5mo ago
What's needed in Europe is federation of the existing systems, not one winner taking it all.
- nolok 5mo ago
  That's exactly what's happening, see the EU digital euro scheme. It's planned to be free of fees too, modeled around how SEPA was done for wires. There has been massive resistance by the incumbents of course, including banks (since they too charge a fee on top of visa). It's been in the backlog for years but the US sanction against ICC judges leading to them being cut off from most things including payment triggered a renewal of it.
  - 202508042147 5mo ago
    That's what I am afraid of. The resistance from the incumbents plus the external pressure from the US (and China?) might be to strong. Better go with a federated approach, mandating all the different payment apps available all over the EU to allow connections from other participants. In any case, the digital euro seems to take years (earlier expected date is 2029). I don't understand why it takes so long.
    - bobthepanda 5mo ago
      It seems right now the European thinking is that the US might just do it regardless so may as well prepare.
  - cassepipe 5mo ago
    From what I remember the bank started to federate around a payment network to outcompete the digital euro. I hope the digital euro wins, I hope they don't fumble it.
  - janpeuker 5mo ago
    The European Payments Initiative (Wero) made the mistake of only aiming for Peer-to-Peer QR code payments, carefully avoiding competing with cards so each country could keep their card schemes (Cartes Bancaires, Girocard etc). I don't think it will ever even _compete_ with cards in the near future.
- markvdb 5mo ago
  EPA [0] and EPI [1] are doing that. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Initiative [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance
kakacik 5mo ago
Twint is in Switzerland for more than 10 years, hardly a new idea
- 202508042147 5mo ago
  Twint is great, I wish more Swiss based people would use it. In the expat community most are using Visa/MC through Apple Pay. I have no idea why.
- hocuspocus 5mo ago
  Swish is even older. The issues with Twint: - Switzerland hasn't gotten Apple to open up NFC payments at the same conditions as the EEE, at least not yet. - Twint is part of the EMPSA which hasn't really delivered anything tangible. On the contrary there's now a real push from EPI and EuroPA to make Wero interoperable with non-Eurozone networks. Hopefully Twint will get on board too. - Transaction fees are on the higher side, consequently merchants don't have any reason to push Twint or disincentive debit card payments.
  - madspindel 5mo ago
    > Twint is part of the EMPSA which hasn't really delivered anything tangible. It's easy to see why. Both Swish and Vipps is part of EMPSA. In Sweden, everyone uses Swish. Vipps (from Norway I believe) wants to expand to Sweden but no one is using it since it's not compatible with Swish. So making it compatible would potentially hurt the business of Swish. Regulation is needed. Otherwise it will never happen.
    - hocuspocus 5mo ago
      If EPI / Wero reach a critical mass then hopefully this will change, as non-Eurozone countries will have a direct interest in making the local mobile payment solution accept the one used by an area of 350+ million people. Then the EPI protocol could become the least common denominator and you might be able to use Vipps, Twint, Blik... in Sweden? I believe similar scenarios are happening in Asia around Alipay and UPI, for instance I think I can use the Korean Kakao Pay on a payment terminal in Japan, because both sides are compatible with Alipay+.
BrandiATMuhkuh 5mo ago
since the end of last year we have had instant payment in the EU. no more need for Mastercard/VISA. what I see missing is education. That's why I'm telling each merchant I come bye to use it. super simple.

someonenice 5mo ago

There is India's UPI (launched in 2016), Singapore PayNow (Launched 2017) that works in a similar way. And they also work across each platform.. UPI users in India can transfer to Paynow users in Singapore and vice versa. [1] https://www.dbs.com.sg/personal/deposits/pay-with-ease/paynow/paynow-upi https://www.dbs.com.sg/personal/deposits/pay-with-ease/payno...

lmz 5mo ago
some UPI users to some Paynow users. (limited to participating institutions only).
gmerc 5mo ago
Thailand Promptpay is federated too, as are some Japanese services.

SomeUserName432 5mo ago

> To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID). There are third party apps you can use to pay with pix using a credit card, can't recall that name, but read about it here a few months back, on another pix-thread. > CPF (Brazilian Tax ID). Then to open a bank account Getting a CPF is absolutely trivial, but I'm not sure you can open a bank account without RN/RNE, at least not with local banks. Can probably manage with one of the online banks.

somewhatgoated 5mo ago
I think you need a RN/RNM to open a bank account even with online banks - I haven’t tried all of them of course so there might be some that work with cpf only
trollbridge 5mo ago
For comparison, one does not need need to get US tax ID number to use a Visa card.
- bleepblap 5mo ago
  Calling a CPF a "tax ID" is a bit misleading, much like calling an SSN "the way you get social security benefits". You can (even as a non-citizen) get one in a couple mins at the post office, and it's used for literally everything, including things like buying a SIM card or registering for some public WiFi hotspots.
  - trollbridge 5mo ago
    Okay, that's quite a bit less bureaucratic than American EIN, ITIN, or SSN (collectively known as TINs). How many digits/letters long is it? One problem with American TINs is the entire space is only a billion digits, so it's not possible to assign one to every person in the world. If we could add two more digits or make 3 alphanumeric, it would be a lot more feasible to do this, but that is basically impossible at this point.
    - 5mo ago

cess11 5mo ago

"we are going to go back to how people used to travel 50 years ago: with a lot of USD bank notes hidden in your hotel room or elsewhere ..." Who did that? Most people except for criminals and refugees used traveller's cheques: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller%27s_cheque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller%27s_cheque I think some banks, like AmEx, still issue them.

spwa4 5mo ago
People did that? I took one look at the fees and ... "no thank you", and took cash.
- rescbr 5mo ago
  Yeah, if I wanted to pay the crazy spread on currency exchange, I’d use my credit card instead. 10 years ago I was still traveling with a bunch of $100 banknotes and reading blogs to find the most honest shady currency exchange place with good rates wherever I went. Fun times! I even paid for two! iPhones in cash back then! Today? I just stop by an ATM and withdraw some cash, everything else goes contactless on Wise.
- bombcar 5mo ago
  We always got traveler’s checks from AAA which were “free”.
  - skeeter2020 5mo ago
    I assume the quotes because maybe no transaction fee but massive spread on the exchange!
    - bombcar 5mo ago
      Well it was dollars for dollars so they really were free (except for the AAA membership). International money exchange has always been fun, luckily for us we never really travelled anywhere that you couldn't just use dollars.
- 5mo ago

Zardoz84 5mo ago

on Europe there is talks about using Spanish's Bizum as the oficial European replacement for Visa/MasterCard

M95D 5mo ago
It's not a replacement until they issue cards that work without a phone.
- fn-mote 5mo ago
  Frankly, the number of people that care about no-phone functionality is tiny. I bet the greatest preference is the other way: the ability to use it without a physical card. Everyone has a phone. Of course you need a backup at some point, but it’s just that: a backup.
  - andrepd 5mo ago
    The stated objective of this initiative is to break free of the American Mastercard/Visa duopoly. It would be pretty fucking stupid that if replacement required the use of the American Apple/Google duopoly! Convenience of use with your phone is one thing. Requiring a (locked-down, attestated) phone to create an account is another thing entirely.
  - skeeter2020 5mo ago
    no doubt that is a top FEATURE request, but why do all this work to transfer the system from a US finance oligopoly to a US tech oligopoly?
  - whatevaa 5mo ago
    Android and IOS are controlled by US companies. And both google and apple can ban you for no reason.
    - brabel 5mo ago
      Touché! Freeing oneself from America is nearly impossible. Unless you’re China, probably.

is_true 5mo ago

You don't need a brazilian tax ID to use PIX, I've used it from MercadoPago from another country and there are a lot of options to use it besides MP.

WinstonSmith84 5mo ago
Well .. How did you register to MercadoPago? I never was able when I was in Argentina (end of last year). It also asked me for some official IDs in Argentina which is even harder to get than a CPF (or probably impossible as a non-resident, I didn't bother at that point)
- is_true 5mo ago
  With MP you need an official ID, but there are some crypto apps that have pix and allow to register with a passport.

vitorbaptistaa 5mo ago

> To be able to pay with Pix, one needs to get a CPF (Brazilian Tax ID). It's not ideal, but you can use Wise to pay using Pix and India's UPI. You simply transfer the money from your local bank account to Wise and they transfer to whatever Pix you tell. It's almost instant. Meanwhile, there are talks about integrating these systems. This is the obvious long-term game, a clear threat to Visa and MasterCard. Right now in Brazil the only advantages of using a regular credit card are the cashbacks and convenience to use contactless. The convenience is going away -- Pix now supports contactless payment, but it's not widely accepted yet.

Antirust3743 5mo ago
Wise remains one of the worst professional support experiences I've ever had at my company and would highly advise people not to use them.
- somewhatgoated 5mo ago
  What is a better alternative in your experience?
- noelwelsh 5mo ago
  In contrast, I had great support the one time I contacted them. Have used them in business and personally across a number of different accounts with no problems.
  - swat535 5mo ago
    The problem with these fintech companies, is that they work great right up until you randomly get banned. They then they decide to keep your money for months. At that point, have fun getting it back unless you send a letter from your lawyers.
kspacewalk2 5mo ago
Another advantage is anti-fraud measures and remedy (chargebacks). This (BTW clearly AI-generated) article mentions some fraud thing they're working on (Special Refund Mechanism), so we'll see how long it takes for that to take effect. For now, I'll be using our Canadian not-quite-Pix called Interac to pay small amounts of money to people I trust, but I won't any time soon be buying a fridge with it, or booking a week-long cottage stay on a website I've never used before.

throwaw12 5mo ago

Europe is already moving towards having own payment system with Wero

Shoue 5mo ago
Wero is a private effort, the digital euro is closer to Pix but it keeps being stalled (given the article in question, one could make some guesses as to why).
embedding-shape 5mo ago
Most European countries I frequent already have their own local equivalent to Pix. In Spain almost everyone has Bizum, and not uncommon for vendors at markets to accept it too, Sweden has Swish which is the same deal for the Swedes. I think this lists the most prominent ones that are in wide usage today already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Mobile_Payment_Systems_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Mobile_Payment_System... Apparently, some of these already have interoperability between each other too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Alliance), happy to learn I can now send/receive money to/from my Portuguese brethren :)
- anthk 5mo ago
  Since May the 5th most shops will begin integrating Bizum within their payments systems. In Spanish: https://cincodias.elpais.com/companias/2026-04-01/a-partir-de-mayo-podras-pagar-con-bizum-en-los-comercios-desde-tu-movil.html https://cincodias.elpais.com/companias/2026-04-01/a-partir-d...
  - embedding-shape 5mo ago
    Since the Bizum became widespread, depending on the size of the business, some always did accept Bizum if you ask nicely :)
- brabel 5mo ago
  Would be amazing for me to use Swish to pay for things in Brazil as if I had Pix! Could that work somehow?

bilekas 5mo ago

> Pix is a good local idea, but the world needs something better. There is no problem to continue using maybe Visa/Mastercard when dealing abroad or external, but when you are a normal citizen, it's far better to use Pix in this case, you are supporting a national company, paying fee's to them and not at the whims of an external countries policies. Edit: They also tend to be non profits ironically enough. In Ireland many years ago there was a system called "Laser" which was very similar, the only reason it was changes was for 'convenience' but in reality it was because Visa and MC had taken over all the POS market, and so Laser cards couldn't give cash back. So the banks just folded. I can't wait to see Europe being some competition to the duopoly that is Mastercard and Visa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card)

jangxx 5mo ago
We might be getting something soon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro
- fakedang 5mo ago
  Europe spends way too much time and money on various Fintech pet projects. There's the Digital Euro and then there's Wero and Target and a bunch of other shit that doesn't reach consumer scale usage or attention.
  - lofaszvanitt 5mo ago
    Anything else?
  - bilekas 5mo ago
    And your point is what? That nothing should ever be investigated, trials, or invested in until it has as you call it "consumer scale useage". The EU is not perfect, but these kind of black and white comments highlight why it can be slow to align everyone to get on board with an idea. The empty vessle makes the most noise.

jmyeet 5mo ago

> I can see that Visa and Mastercard are freaking out, not because Pix can take over their business model, but because it can give ideas to other countries doing the same. Oh they absolutely will. And the US government will come to their aid. Consider the case of Bombardier [1], a Canadian airplane manufacturer. Boeing was caught with its pants down by Airbus with the A320/321 and panicked into making the 737MAX. Boeing has a captive audience with US airlines and the 737. A shared type rating is a massive advantage for Boeing but the economics of the Airbus narrow bodies were just too good. Then along comes this Canadian companiy who saw an opportunity to create a narrow body commercial jet in this range (100-150 seats) and some US airlines were interested. To avoid this Boeing offered United a deep discount to not buy the CSeries and Bombardier responded with discounts of their own. What happened? Boeing then went to the government and accused Bombardier of "dumping" as well as having goavernment subsidies. This is particularly funny if you know anything about the billions in subsidies Boeing gets from both Washington state and the federal government. The US governments made complaitns to the WTO and ended up imposing a 300% tariff on Bombardier, effectively killing that business. It eventually became the Airbus A220. Free markets, by the way. The US will punish foreign companies for competing on price by abusing process and treaties, ignoring it whne it's inconvenient, use tariffs with flimsy excuses, punish unrelated industries to apply pressure and otherwise bully other countries for daring to compoete. Being American companies is unacceptable. So is doing anything that serve as a model to any other country that might threaten an American monopoly or oligopoly. So prepare for accusations of government subsidies and the US applying pressure in unrelated areas because of this. As an aside, the US does this with governments too. "Oh, you wanted to profit from your own natural resources and use that money for the benefit of the people? I think not. Look at this system of government that isn't working. Nevermind that we're starving it with brutal economic sanctions. It doesn't work. Look away. Nothing to see here." [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Boeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSeries_dumping_petition_by_Bo...

brabel 5mo ago
Lovely how China is now beating the Americans in their own game. And the reaction is predictable: accuse the Chinese of being a threat to National Security and stop them from taking over the American market after they have already taken most of the rest of the world. Eventually, Americans will be the ones paying the price for the overly protectionist policies of their government.

Hernanpm 5mo ago

Other countries adopting it is already happening. I live in Bolivia, and a few events made QR payment systems widely used across the country. I have family in Peru, and it is a similar case with Yape, another QR payment system. In Bolivia, fintech companies also offer integration with Pix in Brazil without the need for a CPF to send and receive payments. Since we are neighbors, this is very handy.

lucasban 5mo ago

They can federate the systems, I know Singapore’s PayNow connects to Malaysia and Thailands systems

abdullahkhalids 5mo ago

China's UnionPay and AliPay are to various extents are integrated with the systems in Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia [1]. Each country has its own system, but integrates with others. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/china-indonesia-have-launched-a-qr-payment-system-that-skips-the-us-dollar/ar-AA22np3W https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/china-indonesia-have...

bobthepanda 5mo ago
UnionPay and AliPay are more akin to Visa and Mastercard than Pix.

wslh 5mo ago

> Pix is certainly great, but locally only, Pix is no local as a user, you can use it without a CPF: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48053527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48053527>.

bobthepanda 5mo ago

Does Pix have an equivalent of a prepay debit card? That seems like the most logical easy setup. If you must have integration with identity, just tie it to whatever visa or proof of arrival. Last I went to Mexico they were issuing QR codes for inbound travelers.

3x35r22m4u 5mo ago

I wonder if I showed up (as a foreign visiting) in the US how long it would take and what kind of documents would it take to have a Visa/Mastercard. I guess it would be the same as having or even longer to have your CPF issued and a digital account here in Brazil.

rpgbr 5mo ago

Pix isn't intended (yet) for foreigners to use. It's mostly for local Brazilians, and here it's brilliant: free for personal use, really fast (frequently instantaneous, has a 10 second limit), and accessible (every major bank and most of the smaller ones supports it). I can understand why Visa and Mastercard are worried. Apple is as well, since it refuses to support Pix in Apple Pay, which is mandatory in Brazil. But honestly? Fuck these companies. (Sorry about my French, I couldn't think of another way to put it.)

Schiendelman 5mo ago
Have they said "we refuse" or could it be that they have other priorities that come first?
- benoau 5mo ago
  They were facing fines [1] for blocking usage of NFC a year ago and are still [2] fighting integration, so pretty explicit refusal. [1] https://www.macobserver.com/news/brazils-antitrust-authority-moves-to-penalize-apple-over-ios-payment-restrictions/ https://www.macobserver.com/news/brazils-antitrust-authority... [2] https://9to5mac.com/2026/02/19/apple-accuses-brazilian-banks-of-seeking-a-free-ride-in-nfc-probe/ https://9to5mac.com/2026/02/19/apple-accuses-brazilian-banks...

malvim 5mo ago

Lots of countries around Brazil are taking pix. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay. And you can totally expand the idea. The fact that you need national id for pix doesn’t mean the idea “doesn’t scale.” It means the current implementation of it is not focused on use by visitors. I really don’t understand what you’re getting at, it seems like a pretty narrow view of the possibilities. Meanwhile US citizens are using paper (cash and cheques) for lots of transactions. Or one of the big credit card corporations.

IG_Semmelweiss 5mo ago

I actually see it as quite worrysome. This would crowd out competition, but then gives full monopoly of payments to the local government. If you are say a political outcast, there's a single point of failure in getting debanked. Not good. I do like processing fees down, but definitely not at the cost of creating a single point of failure with power over the entire population.

schubidubiduba 5mo ago
Visa and Mastercard already are a single point of failure (see e.g. the French judge that cannot use it anymore because the US government did not like it when he did his job). This way, there'll be at least two points of failure.

kwanbix 5mo ago

VISA an MasterCard have Credit Cards. Pix is just a way to transfer money you have in your bank account. In europe we can do that with IBAN. It goes from one account to another. In Argentina we have something similar in all banks. What is unike from VISA and MasteCard, at least untill now, is the Credit part of it.

janpeuker 5mo ago

Lots of other Asian countries already did something similar, e.g. Singapore had PayNow QR Codes (probably the closest to Pix) since 2017, Thai PromptPay was even earlier and India UPI (slightly different wallet system) since 2016. China was even earlier but different though private superapps. What has changed, and I find interesting, is that Card rails are more and more used for political pressure [1], and I feel the "American hemisphere" is probably the reason Pix gets more of this pressure than Asian countries. 1) https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-sanctions-against-judges-and-deputy-prosecutors https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-san...

pjg 5mo ago

There is nothing preventing PIX from going global (just like VISA/MC). If you look at the history of domestic systems e.g. China Unipay, India UPI/Rupay, Japan JCB they started off as local systems and went global. Japan JCB is Internationally accepted. China Unipay is also considerably "international" i.e. internationally accepted and India's UPI/Rupay card is adding new countries at a fast clip. The reason most people "don't know" whether they can pay with China Unipay or India's Rupay is because they are not advertised with the same logos as VISA/MC on acceptance sites. However both China Unipay and India's Rupay through their partnership with Discover Card (now owned by CapitalOne ) are accepted anywhere Discover card is accepted The place where these "domestic" systems haven't quite measured up to VISA/MC is the issuing side i.e. the entities controlling these systems currently do not allow foreign banks to issue cards with their logos or use their network to settle the transactions. If you're in the US, you may not get a Unipay or Rupay card from a local bank. There are multiple reasons for that, some strategic some political. It will be interesting to see how they evolve over time. In spite of the exponential rise of PIX , UPI and Unipay, VISA and MC themselves have been doing remarkably well in the past 10-20 years. Unlikely either of them will go belly up.

sfifs 5mo ago

Visa and Master have basically lost the enormous India market outside of credit card business when UPI was more or less mandated by the Indian Reserve Bank and really took off during COVID. Now these regional payment networks are starting to be interconnected like UPI with Singapore's NETS etc. This must be driving intense paranoia among payment networks.