4 ms·

Looking back at my own time in school, my primary bully already got beaten up by his own parents, which probably caused him to act out in school in the first pl

Looking back at my own time in school, my primary bully already got beaten up by his own parents, which probably caused him to act out in school in the first place. I would not wish him to also get beaten by the school, and I do not believe that this would have helped me in any way.

beng-nl 5mo ago
Well said. I think we all shouldnt be too quick to assume that the problem starts with the person doing the bullying, nice and simple as that would be.
- Tade0 5mo ago
  My bully had two much older brothers and I guess that's how he learned to communicate, so I communicated back. We became friends afterwards. Looking back it's not the physical bullying that was the most damaging, but social. I went to a different middle school and without a support network it was difficult to say the least.
- naasking 5mo ago
  > I think we all shouldnt be too quick to assume that the problem starts with the person doing the bullying I don't think anyone is making that assumption, but being ok with corporal punishment likely comes down to three things: 1. We should care more about victims of violence than perpetrators, and all measures should be taken to protect victims and prevent victimization, even if it hurts perpetrators. Meaningful consequences for violent behaviour is critical. 2. The belief the physical deterrents work, if applied consistently and not abused to the point where it doesn't provide clear guidance as to acceptable behaviour. 3. That the primary job of schools and educators is to provide a safe and effective learning environment. Being therapists that get to the root of problematic behaviour is neither in their training nor in their job description.
  - danparsonson 5mo ago
    How about when the perpetrators are also victims? If child A is bullying child B because they themselves are suffering abuse at home (as is often the case), don't both kids deserve help and support? Just beating up child A is no more productive a solution than throwing people in jail.
    - doright 5mo ago
      At the point a parent is beating up their own kid I wonder what options are available. If they're removed from the family then placing them in foster care almost always leads to worse outcomes than leaving them with the abusive family. The state doesn't know how to raise children.
      - danparsonson 5mo ago
        Then surely the focus should be on solving that problem? Just clamping down on the proximate cause doesn't really help - as others have pointed out, it seems likely to incite revenge attacks rather than stopping the bullying.
        doright 5mo ago
        That's the thing, it's unclear if it's a problem that can be solved. It has to do with fundamental benefits of staying with biological family, and avoiding the extremely negative consequences of lack of attachment. https://nccpr.org/the-evidence-is-in-foster-care-vs-keeping-families-together-the-definitive-studies/ https://nccpr.org/the-evidence-is-in-foster-care-vs-keeping-...
    - naasking 5mo ago
      > If child A is bullying child B because they themselves are suffering abuse at home Experiencing hardship doesn't excuse violence against others, just like it wouldn't excuse breaking the law. You can say "here is the punishment for your bad behaviour, now let's ALSO have child services remove you from that environment AND have the justice system punish your parents' bad behaviour". Everybody has their job and if they do their job, then what's the problem? > Just beating up child A is no more productive a solution than throwing people in jail. Firstly, there's no "just do X" for multifaceted problems. Secondly, people these days dramatically underestimate the value of prison. Over 60% of violent crime is committed by under 5% of the population. Don't underestimate the value of simply removing repeat violent offenders from society.
einichi 5mo ago
People respond differently to different things. One bully who gets punched back will stop, while another will escalate. Trying to fix bullying requires a solution tailored to each individual bully.
Fernicia 5mo ago
I doubt his parents beat him because he bullied other kids though. In other words, if the kid thought that reducing his bullying would mean no beatings, perhaps he would have acted differently.

beng-nl 5mo ago

Well said. I think we all shouldnt be too quick to assume that the problem starts with the person doing the bullying, nice and simple as that would be.

Tade0 5mo ago
My bully had two much older brothers and I guess that's how he learned to communicate, so I communicated back. We became friends afterwards. Looking back it's not the physical bullying that was the most damaging, but social. I went to a different middle school and without a support network it was difficult to say the least.
naasking 5mo ago
> I think we all shouldnt be too quick to assume that the problem starts with the person doing the bullying I don't think anyone is making that assumption, but being ok with corporal punishment likely comes down to three things: 1. We should care more about victims of violence than perpetrators, and all measures should be taken to protect victims and prevent victimization, even if it hurts perpetrators. Meaningful consequences for violent behaviour is critical. 2. The belief the physical deterrents work, if applied consistently and not abused to the point where it doesn't provide clear guidance as to acceptable behaviour. 3. That the primary job of schools and educators is to provide a safe and effective learning environment. Being therapists that get to the root of problematic behaviour is neither in their training nor in their job description.
- danparsonson 5mo ago
  How about when the perpetrators are also victims? If child A is bullying child B because they themselves are suffering abuse at home (as is often the case), don't both kids deserve help and support? Just beating up child A is no more productive a solution than throwing people in jail.
  - doright 5mo ago
    At the point a parent is beating up their own kid I wonder what options are available. If they're removed from the family then placing them in foster care almost always leads to worse outcomes than leaving them with the abusive family. The state doesn't know how to raise children.
    - danparsonson 5mo ago
      Then surely the focus should be on solving that problem? Just clamping down on the proximate cause doesn't really help - as others have pointed out, it seems likely to incite revenge attacks rather than stopping the bullying.
      - doright 5mo ago
        That's the thing, it's unclear if it's a problem that can be solved. It has to do with fundamental benefits of staying with biological family, and avoiding the extremely negative consequences of lack of attachment. https://nccpr.org/the-evidence-is-in-foster-care-vs-keeping-families-together-the-definitive-studies/ https://nccpr.org/the-evidence-is-in-foster-care-vs-keeping-...
  - naasking 5mo ago
    > If child A is bullying child B because they themselves are suffering abuse at home Experiencing hardship doesn't excuse violence against others, just like it wouldn't excuse breaking the law. You can say "here is the punishment for your bad behaviour, now let's ALSO have child services remove you from that environment AND have the justice system punish your parents' bad behaviour". Everybody has their job and if they do their job, then what's the problem? > Just beating up child A is no more productive a solution than throwing people in jail. Firstly, there's no "just do X" for multifaceted problems. Secondly, people these days dramatically underestimate the value of prison. Over 60% of violent crime is committed by under 5% of the population. Don't underestimate the value of simply removing repeat violent offenders from society.

einichi 5mo ago

People respond differently to different things. One bully who gets punched back will stop, while another will escalate. Trying to fix bullying requires a solution tailored to each individual bully.

Fernicia 5mo ago

I doubt his parents beat him because he bullied other kids though. In other words, if the kid thought that reducing his bullying would mean no beatings, perhaps he would have acted differently.