3 ms·

Of course they are. Theirs is a more corporate surveillance, though. I'm genuinely afraid of what the brazilian government can do with this sort of data.

pyrale 6mo ago
> Theirs is a more corporate surveillance, though. The thing about US' corporate suveillance system, and why the US government is so tolerant about it, is that US government branches either buy or are given all the data they need. You don't get government surveillance or corporate surveillance, you get government surveillance or government and corporate surveillance.
kristjank 6mo ago
Third party doctrine means corporate surveillance is state surveillance. And unlike Pix covering just Brazil, CC companies cover the whole world.
subw00f 6mo ago
Such a naive take. Like the US government espionage is not deeply embedded in even the most basic infrastructure, let alone payment gateways. They probably spend millions on huge data pipelines straight to the fucking pentagon.
- matheusmoreira 6mo ago
  Nothing naive about it. Brazil is not the USA. It hasn't exactly demonstrated an ability to "deeply embed" itself into internet backbones the way the USA does. The problem with Pix is: they don't need to. Lack of capabilities limit the scope of government tyranny. It used to be that the government didn't have the manpower required to audit everyone and everything, so only the bank transactions above some threshold would be monitored. With pix, they are monitoring 100% of transactions now. This is a massive gain in capability that should not be ignored.
  - gota 6mo ago
    >With pix, they are monitoring 100% of transactions now. First, I don't think they are. Second, good - they should have an _algorithm_ checking every transaction. MasterCard and VISA do it and do nothing for me; the government could catch all the money laundering that is the lifeblood of crime, or maybe just finally eradicate tax evasion, the necessary first step towards rationalizing our tax code and one of the core issues of our country? Your opinions read like you have misplaced worries, if not values.
    - matheusmoreira 6mo ago
      > First, I don't think they are. 100% of pix transactions are unconditionally sent to government bodies for monitoring. It's not an algorithmic "only if it matches some criteria" affair. What they're actually doing with the data is anyone's guess. They could be doing anything. The tax department is no doubt going to be the first part of the brazilian government to adopt AI. Who knows what other creative uses they're going to find for it? > MasterCard and VISA do it and do nothing for me And we should be making it illegal for them to do that, not compounding the problem by piling on equivalent government functionality on top of it. The problem is supposed to be fixed, not replaced with a national version. > the government could catch all the money laundering that is the lifeblood of crime The optimal amount of money laundering, fraud, crime, are all non-zero. You can "catch all the money laundering" quite easily, just install a totalitarian state panopticon where everybody is guilty by default and constantly surveilled by an omniscient intelligence apparatus, problem solved. You're going to need to accept some amount of crime if you want to have some semblance of freedom and basic human dignity.
    - reese_john 6mo ago
      > Second, good - they should have an _algorithm_ checking every transaction. MasterCard and VISA do it and do nothing for me; You are confusing transaction authorization done by card networks/issuers with the kind of fraud analysis that happens post settlement and requires correlating multiple transactions and accounts > the government could catch all the money laundering No, you don’t have enough information in transactions alone to identify all money laundering, specially the sophisticated kind.
- shimman 6mo ago
  A sizable amount of Americans are completely hoodwinked by capitalists that have made their material lives worse in every capacity. Thinking that an accountable entity, a democratic government, as a worse than the unaccountable centrally planned dictatorship (a corporation) is just laughable but America has been a laughable place for quite a while as we prefer helping corporations over literal people.

pyrale 6mo ago

> Theirs is a more corporate surveillance, though. The thing about US' corporate suveillance system, and why the US government is so tolerant about it, is that US government branches either buy or are given all the data they need. You don't get government surveillance or corporate surveillance, you get government surveillance or government and corporate surveillance.

kristjank 6mo ago

Third party doctrine means corporate surveillance is state surveillance. And unlike Pix covering just Brazil, CC companies cover the whole world.

subw00f 6mo ago

Such a naive take. Like the US government espionage is not deeply embedded in even the most basic infrastructure, let alone payment gateways. They probably spend millions on huge data pipelines straight to the fucking pentagon.

matheusmoreira 6mo ago
Nothing naive about it. Brazil is not the USA. It hasn't exactly demonstrated an ability to "deeply embed" itself into internet backbones the way the USA does. The problem with Pix is: they don't need to. Lack of capabilities limit the scope of government tyranny. It used to be that the government didn't have the manpower required to audit everyone and everything, so only the bank transactions above some threshold would be monitored. With pix, they are monitoring 100% of transactions now. This is a massive gain in capability that should not be ignored.
- gota 6mo ago
  >With pix, they are monitoring 100% of transactions now. First, I don't think they are. Second, good - they should have an _algorithm_ checking every transaction. MasterCard and VISA do it and do nothing for me; the government could catch all the money laundering that is the lifeblood of crime, or maybe just finally eradicate tax evasion, the necessary first step towards rationalizing our tax code and one of the core issues of our country? Your opinions read like you have misplaced worries, if not values.
  - matheusmoreira 6mo ago
    > First, I don't think they are. 100% of pix transactions are unconditionally sent to government bodies for monitoring. It's not an algorithmic "only if it matches some criteria" affair. What they're actually doing with the data is anyone's guess. They could be doing anything. The tax department is no doubt going to be the first part of the brazilian government to adopt AI. Who knows what other creative uses they're going to find for it? > MasterCard and VISA do it and do nothing for me And we should be making it illegal for them to do that, not compounding the problem by piling on equivalent government functionality on top of it. The problem is supposed to be fixed, not replaced with a national version. > the government could catch all the money laundering that is the lifeblood of crime The optimal amount of money laundering, fraud, crime, are all non-zero. You can "catch all the money laundering" quite easily, just install a totalitarian state panopticon where everybody is guilty by default and constantly surveilled by an omniscient intelligence apparatus, problem solved. You're going to need to accept some amount of crime if you want to have some semblance of freedom and basic human dignity.
  - reese_john 6mo ago
    > Second, good - they should have an _algorithm_ checking every transaction. MasterCard and VISA do it and do nothing for me; You are confusing transaction authorization done by card networks/issuers with the kind of fraud analysis that happens post settlement and requires correlating multiple transactions and accounts > the government could catch all the money laundering No, you don’t have enough information in transactions alone to identify all money laundering, specially the sophisticated kind.
shimman 6mo ago
A sizable amount of Americans are completely hoodwinked by capitalists that have made their material lives worse in every capacity. Thinking that an accountable entity, a democratic government, as a worse than the unaccountable centrally planned dictatorship (a corporation) is just laughable but America has been a laughable place for quite a while as we prefer helping corporations over literal people.