4 ms·

I couldn't have said it better. I don't understand what they solve. We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. Switzerland is not part of SEPA but

by Pooge 5mo ago

I couldn't have said it better. I don't understand what they solve. We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. Switzerland is not part of SEPA but IBAN is used so it is trivial to send payments to foreign accounts that have an IBAN. I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards.

ptman 5mo ago
SEPA instant already exists. I think it guarantees sub-10s transactions. Unfortunately it is not the default.
- Pooge 5mo ago
  SEPA is only for Euros but there are countries that don't use Euros that still use IBAN (e.g. Switzerland and UK).
  - hocuspocus 5mo ago
    The UK has had instant transfers for many years. Switzerland since last summer, but banks aren't forced to expose the feature to retail customers yet, at least not for free. We could have had that 15 years ago if our government wasn't so afraid of upsetting the banking lobbies.
pimeys 5mo ago
In Germany we have free instant SEPA transfers. What Wero solves is that you can send money without giving your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account. So you get standardized payment system where you scan a QR code or NFC tag with your bank app and the payment goes through IBAN and the system shows an approval of payment. It still uses the same systems under the surface.
- Pooge 5mo ago
  > your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account What the f#*k?!
  - pimeys 5mo ago
    It's called SEPA direct debit. For some reason people don't want to use their web bank to pay for things, so what you usually do is you do a SEPA direct debit contract and the company takes the money from your account every month.
hocuspocus 5mo ago
> We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere > Switzerland is not part of SEPA We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). > I don't understand what they solve. [...] > I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards. You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too.
- Pooge 5mo ago
  > We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere That is true; I should have said "EEA" or "countries supporting IBAN". > We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). Yes, which is exactly my point. We need it to work for CHF as well. Instant payments are not the norm and in fact UBS is charging for it. > You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too. A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.
  - hocuspocus 5mo ago
    This is a false dichotomy. You can have very cheap transaction fees, Pix is state-run and probably operates at a loss, with merchant fees as low as 0.2~0.3%. In comparison the cheapest card payment under the EEA interchange cap is probably slightly above 0.5% when you add scheme fees and PSP costs. However businesses do require payment systems and not just barebones bank transfers. Except for high trust, low volume transactions such as buying a car, paying your rent...
  - raron 5mo ago

by Pooge 5mo ago

ptman 5mo ago

SEPA instant already exists. I think it guarantees sub-10s transactions. Unfortunately it is not the default.

Pooge 5mo ago
SEPA is only for Euros but there are countries that don't use Euros that still use IBAN (e.g. Switzerland and UK).
- hocuspocus 5mo ago
  The UK has had instant transfers for many years. Switzerland since last summer, but banks aren't forced to expose the feature to retail customers yet, at least not for free. We could have had that 15 years ago if our government wasn't so afraid of upsetting the banking lobbies.

pimeys 5mo ago

In Germany we have free instant SEPA transfers. What Wero solves is that you can send money without giving your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account. So you get standardized payment system where you scan a QR code or NFC tag with your bank app and the payment goes through IBAN and the system shows an approval of payment. It still uses the same systems under the surface.

Pooge 5mo ago
> your IBAN number, which at least in Germany can be used to take money from your account What the f#*k?!
- pimeys 5mo ago
  It's called SEPA direct debit. For some reason people don't want to use their web bank to pay for things, so what you usually do is you do a SEPA direct debit contract and the company takes the money from your account every month.

hocuspocus 5mo ago

> We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere > Switzerland is not part of SEPA We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). > I don't understand what they solve. [...] > I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards. You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too.

Pooge 5mo ago
> We have? SCT inst has been rolled out almost everywhere That is true; I should have said "EEA" or "countries supporting IBAN". > We definitely are. Transfers in EUR from/to CH IBANs use SEPA rails. CHF accounts can also send or receive EUR transparently (usually at a bad FX rate, but it just works). Yes, which is exactly my point. We need it to work for CHF as well. Instant payments are not the norm and in fact UBS is charging for it. > You answered your own question. We need pan-European payments systems on top of the existing banking infrastructure. Payments and transfers aren't the same thing. By moving to mobile wallets with QR code and NFC payments, this opens up interoperability beyond Europe too. A payment should be a bank transfer. Anything more complicated is just something that is to be exploited by middle-men.
- hocuspocus 5mo ago
  This is a false dichotomy. You can have very cheap transaction fees, Pix is state-run and probably operates at a loss, with merchant fees as low as 0.2~0.3%. In comparison the cheapest card payment under the EEA interchange cap is probably slightly above 0.5% when you add scheme fees and PSP costs. However businesses do require payment systems and not just barebones bank transfers. Except for high trust, low volume transactions such as buying a car, paying your rent...
- raron 5mo ago