7 ms·

The answer to that question in a society that allows (mostly) autonomy of choice is that we let them die on the street. I'm not convinced that involuntary inca

by Loughla 6mo ago

The answer to that question in a society that allows (mostly) autonomy of choice is that we let them die on the street. I'm not convinced that involuntary incarceration will actually fix the problem. I believe it will just take it off of the streets and out of the public consciousness.

0xBA5ED 6mo ago
Not a great solution, honestly. Long term drug abuse is almost never a victimless habit. I'm tempted to say never.
- mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
  This isn't the 1980s anymore. Using drugs is perfectly fine. A ton of people here on HN take drugs regularly, but few think it's worth to rock the boat against this kind of nonsense you're spreading
  - Loughla 6mo ago
    Have you ever interacted with a heroine or meth user? Sometimes using drugs is fine, depending on the drug, the reason, and the person. For example, I did cocaine once and immediately knew I needed to cut ties with those friends because if I had access to it regularly, I would ruin my life. Others can do coke recreationally and not have an issue. Others can't form the insight I had until their lives are in shambles, and maybe not even then.
    - mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
      > Have you ever interacted with a heroine or meth user? Yes, I have, and so have you. The thing is You wouldn't notice that they were in fact drug users unless they told you.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - 0xBA5ED 6mo ago
    You actually changed what I said then declared it nonsense. I said abuse, not use.
    - amanaplanacanal 6mo ago
      How do you separate those legally? I ask, because we are discussing using the legal system here.
      - filoleg 6mo ago
        I will admit, I didn't think it through super deeply, but I have a very simple (and possibly naive) proposal. We separate them legally the same way we separate alcohol use vs. alcohol abuse. The consequences of getting caught for speeding vs. getting caught for speeding while under influence tend to drastically differ in magnitude, so I suggest we do the same for other kinds of drug abuse. Being under influence shouldn't be a mitigating factor while committing crimes, but for non-driving offenses it often ends up being such. So I suggest we treat it the same way for violent crimes as we do for driving offenses.
    - mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
      Because the word "use" and "abuse" are interchangeable for prohibitionists
  - Rendello 5mo ago
    > Crack?! I've got company! > Oh, relax! "Oh, I'm Mark, I'm in the '80s, I'm dying of heroin in a puddle in the corner in an advert!" Drugs are fine, Mark, everyone agrees now. Drugs are what happen to people, and that's fine, so shut up. https://youtu.be/yoZ1EGxPaOE?t=19 https://youtu.be/yoZ1EGxPaOE?t=19
charcircuit 6mo ago
>I believe it will just take it off of the streets and out of the public consciousness. If antisocial people do not exist in the public consciousness, then that means the problem is fixed. Even you never have to worry about locking your front door, then the problem of burglars has been fixed even if technically would be burglars may exist in prison.
- pessimizer 6mo ago
  Drug addicts and the mentally ill don't have the problem of being "antisocial." They have drug addiction and mental illness. "Antisocial" is the problem that you have when you see them, and is the problem that is solved when you don't see them. It's a completely narcissistic way of looking at things. For example, putting you in prison would also solve the problem of your objection to them. You would still be surrounded by drug addicts and the mentally ill in prison, but we wouldn't have to listen to you complain about it, so our problems would be solved. But that's also not a good solution.
  - charcircuit 6mo ago
    I think you are underestimating how few bad actors it takes to ruin a system, but I do agree with your point that you can also remove the people who think they are negatively impacted. For example in Counter Strike you can either ban the small percentage of cheaters or you could cultivate the community to not care if people are cheating.
cameldrv 6mo ago
I have a very good friend who was an addict, and I tried to help him turn his life around in many ways, but I couldn’t figure out a way. Professionals told me “he has to hit rock bottom.” Anyhow he wound up getting arrested and spent a couple of weeks in jail where he got clean and decided to turn his life around. He went on to get a couple of masters degrees, get married, have two kids, and has a good job. He credits his time in jail for saving his life.
- pessimizer 6mo ago
  I knew somebody who turned his life around after surviving an attempted murder. I still don't think that means that trying to murder people whose lives are going awry is a rational solution.
  - 0xBA5ED 6mo ago
    You're saying that spending time in jail is roughly equivalent to being a victim of attempted murder.
    - pessimizer 6mo ago
      No, I'm saying that both things could have them same effect, so the existence of that effect isn't a proof that the solution makes sense. If I tell you that covering something in red paint and covering something in tomato sauce will stain them both red, I'm not saying that red paint is tomato sauce. I also know people who have changed their lives after heart attacks. Am I saying that heart attacks are roughly equivalent to prison stays?
      - 0xBA5ED 6mo ago
        [dead]
- ratelimitsteve 6mo ago
  I have a friend who picked up heroin in jail, came out an addict and died of an OD in his basement. His daughter found him. If your anecdote can prove your point, then mine can disprove it.
JuniperMesos 6mo ago
Taking the problem of crazy severely-mentally-ill people off the streets and out of the public consciousness is strictly better than having that problem be on the streets and in the public consciousness because it's happening around the public all the time. If nothing else, it reduces the chances that a random commuter will get randomly stabbed on the subway by a severely crazy person.
- cwmoore 5mo ago
  Rather have people hauled away on suspicion then? You know, before something happens? The people in the public places are the public. It’s likely that random stabbers have already been hauled away before for something else. You’re talking about running a training program for reinforcing the antisocial tendencies, and pensions for their paid captors.
hn_throwaway_99 6mo ago
> I'm not convinced that involuntary incarceration will actually fix the problem. Not to sound too crass, but doesn't that pretty much "fix the problem" (i.e. homeless people on the street) by definition?
- cwmoore 5mo ago
  Breathing problems? Stop the breathing. Solved, by definition.
  - hn_throwaway_99 5mo ago
    That is a completely irrelevant analogy. I wasn't advocating for the Soylent Green solution.
    - cwmoore 5mo ago
      You seem to have missed my meaning entirely. Making a problem invisible makes two problems. Soylent Green is the opposite of the direction I would advocate.
- verall 5mo ago
  > society has decided to stop jailing (committing) the homeless > leaving them on the street is not helping them. committing them would give them access to (force upon them) care, and is the more humane thing to do > I'm not convinced that involuntary incarceration will actually fix the problem > doesn't that pretty much "fix the problem"? Which problem? Every misunderstanding is someone replying to someone else without knowing who was replying to whom

by Loughla 6mo ago

0xBA5ED 6mo ago

Not a great solution, honestly. Long term drug abuse is almost never a victimless habit. I'm tempted to say never.

mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
This isn't the 1980s anymore. Using drugs is perfectly fine. A ton of people here on HN take drugs regularly, but few think it's worth to rock the boat against this kind of nonsense you're spreading
- Loughla 6mo ago
  Have you ever interacted with a heroine or meth user? Sometimes using drugs is fine, depending on the drug, the reason, and the person. For example, I did cocaine once and immediately knew I needed to cut ties with those friends because if I had access to it regularly, I would ruin my life. Others can do coke recreationally and not have an issue. Others can't form the insight I had until their lives are in shambles, and maybe not even then.
  - mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
    > Have you ever interacted with a heroine or meth user? Yes, I have, and so have you. The thing is You wouldn't notice that they were in fact drug users unless they told you.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- 0xBA5ED 6mo ago
  You actually changed what I said then declared it nonsense. I said abuse, not use.
  - amanaplanacanal 6mo ago
    How do you separate those legally? I ask, because we are discussing using the legal system here.
    - filoleg 6mo ago
      I will admit, I didn't think it through super deeply, but I have a very simple (and possibly naive) proposal. We separate them legally the same way we separate alcohol use vs. alcohol abuse. The consequences of getting caught for speeding vs. getting caught for speeding while under influence tend to drastically differ in magnitude, so I suggest we do the same for other kinds of drug abuse. Being under influence shouldn't be a mitigating factor while committing crimes, but for non-driving offenses it often ends up being such. So I suggest we treat it the same way for violent crimes as we do for driving offenses.
  - mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
    Because the word "use" and "abuse" are interchangeable for prohibitionists
- Rendello 5mo ago
  > Crack?! I've got company! > Oh, relax! "Oh, I'm Mark, I'm in the '80s, I'm dying of heroin in a puddle in the corner in an advert!" Drugs are fine, Mark, everyone agrees now. Drugs are what happen to people, and that's fine, so shut up. https://youtu.be/yoZ1EGxPaOE?t=19 https://youtu.be/yoZ1EGxPaOE?t=19

charcircuit 6mo ago

>I believe it will just take it off of the streets and out of the public consciousness. If antisocial people do not exist in the public consciousness, then that means the problem is fixed. Even you never have to worry about locking your front door, then the problem of burglars has been fixed even if technically would be burglars may exist in prison.

pessimizer 6mo ago
Drug addicts and the mentally ill don't have the problem of being "antisocial." They have drug addiction and mental illness. "Antisocial" is the problem that you have when you see them, and is the problem that is solved when you don't see them. It's a completely narcissistic way of looking at things. For example, putting you in prison would also solve the problem of your objection to them. You would still be surrounded by drug addicts and the mentally ill in prison, but we wouldn't have to listen to you complain about it, so our problems would be solved. But that's also not a good solution.
- charcircuit 6mo ago
  I think you are underestimating how few bad actors it takes to ruin a system, but I do agree with your point that you can also remove the people who think they are negatively impacted. For example in Counter Strike you can either ban the small percentage of cheaters or you could cultivate the community to not care if people are cheating.

cameldrv 6mo ago

I have a very good friend who was an addict, and I tried to help him turn his life around in many ways, but I couldn’t figure out a way. Professionals told me “he has to hit rock bottom.” Anyhow he wound up getting arrested and spent a couple of weeks in jail where he got clean and decided to turn his life around. He went on to get a couple of masters degrees, get married, have two kids, and has a good job. He credits his time in jail for saving his life.

pessimizer 6mo ago
I knew somebody who turned his life around after surviving an attempted murder. I still don't think that means that trying to murder people whose lives are going awry is a rational solution.
- 0xBA5ED 6mo ago
  You're saying that spending time in jail is roughly equivalent to being a victim of attempted murder.
  - pessimizer 6mo ago
    No, I'm saying that both things could have them same effect, so the existence of that effect isn't a proof that the solution makes sense. If I tell you that covering something in red paint and covering something in tomato sauce will stain them both red, I'm not saying that red paint is tomato sauce. I also know people who have changed their lives after heart attacks. Am I saying that heart attacks are roughly equivalent to prison stays?
    - 0xBA5ED 6mo ago
      [dead]
ratelimitsteve 6mo ago
I have a friend who picked up heroin in jail, came out an addict and died of an OD in his basement. His daughter found him. If your anecdote can prove your point, then mine can disprove it.

JuniperMesos 6mo ago

Taking the problem of crazy severely-mentally-ill people off the streets and out of the public consciousness is strictly better than having that problem be on the streets and in the public consciousness because it's happening around the public all the time. If nothing else, it reduces the chances that a random commuter will get randomly stabbed on the subway by a severely crazy person.

cwmoore 5mo ago
Rather have people hauled away on suspicion then? You know, before something happens? The people in the public places are the public. It’s likely that random stabbers have already been hauled away before for something else. You’re talking about running a training program for reinforcing the antisocial tendencies, and pensions for their paid captors.

hn_throwaway_99 6mo ago

> I'm not convinced that involuntary incarceration will actually fix the problem. Not to sound too crass, but doesn't that pretty much "fix the problem" (i.e. homeless people on the street) by definition?

cwmoore 5mo ago
Breathing problems? Stop the breathing. Solved, by definition.
- hn_throwaway_99 5mo ago
  That is a completely irrelevant analogy. I wasn't advocating for the Soylent Green solution.
  - cwmoore 5mo ago
    You seem to have missed my meaning entirely. Making a problem invisible makes two problems. Soylent Green is the opposite of the direction I would advocate.
verall 5mo ago
> society has decided to stop jailing (committing) the homeless > leaving them on the street is not helping them. committing them would give them access to (force upon them) care, and is the more humane thing to do > I'm not convinced that involuntary incarceration will actually fix the problem > doesn't that pretty much "fix the problem"? Which problem? Every misunderstanding is someone replying to someone else without knowing who was replying to whom