4 ms·

> I find it quite offensive to base arguments on the assumption that the sum of any person is nothing but their gender and the colour of their skin. That is no

> I find it quite offensive to base arguments on the assumption that the sum of any person is nothing but their gender and the colour of their skin. That is not what is being assumed, and that is also not what this discussion is about. You can disagree as to whether diversity is a laudable goal or not (I and others will vigorously defend that it is), or we can have a discussion about whether BritRuby was organized in a coherent manner (I would argue that there isn't really enough evidence to assess), or we could look at how other conferences have been organized (which is what Avdi does in this post). What we should not do is take offense just to take offense, and take this away from a discussion of what it is that we can and should do, into an argument about who's more offended. > Because I don't know the exact line up for that conference Just sayin', but it might be helpful to find out what the lineup was before taking offense.

alinajaf 14y ago
> diversity is a laudable goal or not (I and others will vigorously defend that it is) Can you point me to some literature about this please? I'd be interested in finding out how you, and the voting majority in the UK, have convinced themselves that diversity is so laudable a goal in and itself. I understand it on an evolutionary biology level, but not in terms of the make-up of a technical community[1]. As a bonus I'd also like to know why so many people think that it should be artificially manufactured when it doesn't occur organically. These ideas are not self-evident to me, but seem to be for a large number of people. [1] Unless of course, your ulterior motive is to reproduce with members of the opposite gender of a variety of nationalities.
- CJefferson 14y ago
  The reason is that many of us believe, backed up by various studies (unfortunately I am on a bus now, but I can go and find them when I get home if you like, but look up job advertisements with changed names, and women applying for orchestras), that people who associate with small groups of people like them can end up subconsciously keeping other people out, because they automatically believe they are not as good. I believe diversity should be the natural state of most fields, including Ruby. Because things are so heavily biased at the moment, some help to begin moving things towards balanced can be greatly beneficial, to help people trying to move into the field. I was recently in the unusual position of being the only man at a computing conference, and was surprised to find it an exhausting experience, even though almost everybody there made me feel very welcome.
  - alinajaf 14y ago
    > but I can go and find them when I get home if you like Yes please! > that people who associate with small groups of people like them can end up subconsciously keeping other people out, because they automatically believe they are not as good. If the problem is that you're associating with small groups of people, the solution should not be to make sure that this particular group of people gets artificially more diverse to satisfy a lacking in your experience. You should just get out of the house and meet more types of people. > I believe diversity should be the natural state of most fields, including Ruby. Why? Do you believe that the Ruby community should have people who are good at programming and bad at programming? Racists and non-racists? Pacifists and militarists? Pro-choice and pro-life people? People who like gruyere cheese and those who don't? Why do we stick to race and gender in particular as an axis of diversity? Specifically, why aren't we arguing the corner of racist, cheese-eating pacifists? > to help people trying to move into the field As I've said in other comments, I find this attitude to be quite condescending. I do not need your help to move into any field. In Western civilisation at least, my own efforts will be good enough.
    - CJefferson 14y ago
      Blind orchestra auditions better for women, study finds http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/A94/90/73G00/ http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/A94/90/73G00/ Employer's replies to racial names http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html One thing I personally like about these surveys is that they appear to tell us people do these things subconsiously. You don't want my help or to be condescended to. I (and other white males) don't want to be called out as racist and sexist. There always will be people who "beat the odds". It sounds like you have. I am from a poor background, yet I went to Cambridge University. My wife is one of the top AI researchers in the UK, if not the world. My wife also brings in another perspective to me. Having helped run a couple of conferences, we didn't have to lower our standards to be more diverse. We just had to look more widely than we might have done if we were lazy, and just asked our close friends.
      - alinajaf 14y ago

alinajaf 14y ago

> diversity is a laudable goal or not (I and others will vigorously defend that it is) Can you point me to some literature about this please? I'd be interested in finding out how you, and the voting majority in the UK, have convinced themselves that diversity is so laudable a goal in and itself. I understand it on an evolutionary biology level, but not in terms of the make-up of a technical community[1]. As a bonus I'd also like to know why so many people think that it should be artificially manufactured when it doesn't occur organically. These ideas are not self-evident to me, but seem to be for a large number of people. [1] Unless of course, your ulterior motive is to reproduce with members of the opposite gender of a variety of nationalities.

CJefferson 14y ago
The reason is that many of us believe, backed up by various studies (unfortunately I am on a bus now, but I can go and find them when I get home if you like, but look up job advertisements with changed names, and women applying for orchestras), that people who associate with small groups of people like them can end up subconsciously keeping other people out, because they automatically believe they are not as good. I believe diversity should be the natural state of most fields, including Ruby. Because things are so heavily biased at the moment, some help to begin moving things towards balanced can be greatly beneficial, to help people trying to move into the field. I was recently in the unusual position of being the only man at a computing conference, and was surprised to find it an exhausting experience, even though almost everybody there made me feel very welcome.
- alinajaf 14y ago
  > but I can go and find them when I get home if you like Yes please! > that people who associate with small groups of people like them can end up subconsciously keeping other people out, because they automatically believe they are not as good. If the problem is that you're associating with small groups of people, the solution should not be to make sure that this particular group of people gets artificially more diverse to satisfy a lacking in your experience. You should just get out of the house and meet more types of people. > I believe diversity should be the natural state of most fields, including Ruby. Why? Do you believe that the Ruby community should have people who are good at programming and bad at programming? Racists and non-racists? Pacifists and militarists? Pro-choice and pro-life people? People who like gruyere cheese and those who don't? Why do we stick to race and gender in particular as an axis of diversity? Specifically, why aren't we arguing the corner of racist, cheese-eating pacifists? > to help people trying to move into the field As I've said in other comments, I find this attitude to be quite condescending. I do not need your help to move into any field. In Western civilisation at least, my own efforts will be good enough.
  - CJefferson 14y ago
    Blind orchestra auditions better for women, study finds http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/A94/90/73G00/ http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/A94/90/73G00/ Employer's replies to racial names http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html One thing I personally like about these surveys is that they appear to tell us people do these things subconsiously. You don't want my help or to be condescended to. I (and other white males) don't want to be called out as racist and sexist. There always will be people who "beat the odds". It sounds like you have. I am from a poor background, yet I went to Cambridge University. My wife is one of the top AI researchers in the UK, if not the world. My wife also brings in another perspective to me. Having helped run a couple of conferences, we didn't have to lower our standards to be more diverse. We just had to look more widely than we might have done if we were lazy, and just asked our close friends.
    - alinajaf 14y ago