5 ms·

There is also a lot of evidence that shows the availability of factory jobs in developing countries (not just Africa but also India and Pakistan) is very good f

by cm2012 5mo ago

There is also a lot of evidence that shows the availability of factory jobs in developing countries (not just Africa but also India and Pakistan) is very good for young women. A young woman who gets a job outside of her poor family is much less likely to be forced to marry young.

mothballed 5mo ago
[flagged]
- coryrc 5mo ago
  Don't be obtuse. You can quit a boss and never see them again.
  - oklahomasports 5mo ago
    As a child factory slave?
    - nathan_compton 5mo ago
      No one seriously wants to compare the relative merits of child factory slavery and traditional child bride type situations. Like literally no one here is saying "its better to enslave children in factories compared to having them exchange their womb for protection from a local man."
      - mothballed 5mo ago
        Being forced to do anything is bad. Having an evaluation of your options is good. I don't think a facial argument can be made you're better off in the factory, although it might be true. I can think of many scenarios where I'd rather be in the factory, but also many where perhaps I'd prefer to have some selection of pastoral herding families to marry into over being funneled into "the one factory" where the god-billionaire has even more power than a vindictive husband. I'm certainly not going to look at a piece of paper that says "factory move into town and women (or chidlren) took the jobs" and then just declare the women are better off. What happened before that factory was there? Did they buy off the agricultural or herding land and turn it into a waste dump? Are the power dynamics against women even worse now, where before it was a decentralized network of husbands but now one centralized hierarchal company with bosses that are even more above the law than the husband was? I don't know.
        throwway120385 5mo ago
        I'd be interested to know what happened when this transition took place in Europe and the UK, because we'd have the advantage of hundreds of years of history to inform the outcomes. It's easy to forget that our great grandparents and grandparents experienced roughly the same dichotomy between living on a farm raising kids and going to work for a capitalist owner of a factory for a meager wage. The romanticization of that period paints a picture of choice that I don't really buy. It seems like your desire to find nuance is validated by what I do already know.
        cm2012 5mo ago
        Here is some evidence: https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-h https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-h... “Ever since I started working in the garment factory, my life has changed. For the first time, I am not being looked upon as a burden. It has improved my status within the family,” said 19-year-old Chobi Mahmud, a garment worker in Dhaka.
- LastTrain 5mo ago
  We're talking about children.
- colechristensen 5mo ago
  This is appalling. Delete it.
- numpad0 5mo ago
  is this saying like "we were happier with some nuts and occasional games, discovering fire was a mistake"
- xp84 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - teachrdan 5mo ago
    I can tell you're upset, but it's hard to understand what you're arguing for with those last two points. > 1. Let's not pretend that young people... don't make their own terrible decisions too. Look at the divorce rate and the rates of reported DV in the West. Do you believe that there will be happier marriages and less domestic violence when brides are 16 years old and have little to no agency in choosing who marries them? It seems like your argument should be that people should be more careful in choosing who they marry, not less. > 2. The Western way ("love marriage" + "women must work or the family will be in poverty") has led to most Western countries being on a downward spiral to literal extinction... This is just literal ignorance on your part. In every country in the world, higher quality of life (wealth, education, longevity, etc.) has lead to a decrease in population. This is not correlated to "love marriage" or "women must work or the family will be in poverty" -- indeed, women in less developed countries work more hours than their peers in developed countries, though often in the informal sector. I get that European- and US-based writers often assume their own culture's ideas are best. But your arguments are doing nothing to refute the article. Rather than adding to the discourse, you just seem like you're standing on a soapbox against women having agency.
    - ux266478 5mo ago
      > Do you believe that there will be happier marriages and less domestic violence when brides are 16 years old and have little to no agency in choosing who marries them? Comparison isn't necessarily binary. I'd posit these things are more likely determined by other socio-cultural variables, the individuals involved (which is partially contextualized by said variables) and a noisy baseline than whether or not a marriage is arranged. In otherwords, an independent variable (which means I disagree with the both of you) > In every country in the world, higher quality of life (wealth, education, longevity, etc.) has lead to a decrease in population. I'm not sure that holds. Do you mean that a higher quality of life leads to a decrease in fertility rate? It's obviously true that population booms eventually end, and historically large ones are usually followed by contraction as a correction. But overall those things you list result in an increase of population, it simply hits a ceiling and stabilizes. We just had the largest population boom in observable (more than recorded!) history, the industrial revolution dwarfs the agricultural one. It stands to reason we should see a pretty hefty population contraction which tapers into a very mild amount of growth until we raise the population ceiling once again. I don't think he's particularly right that low fertility rates are caused by "marriage for love". It's more like many places with low fertility rates are currently correcting for overly explosive growth experienced in recent history. Other places are only just now having their local population booms, or correcting for other population effects (like war.) It's very unlikely we will contract more than a few billion over the next couple hundred years. Keep in mind the industrial revolution is what caused us to rocket into the billions in the first place. For reference the upper bound estimated population of the 10th century is 400 million, and the upper bound of the 17th is about 500 million. 25% global growth over 700 years. The last 300 years is something like 1700%. Almost all rhetoric about birth rates never accounts for any of this. So again, independent variables.
- svnt 5mo ago
  Childhood pregnancy is the leading cause of death in teenage girls. We can say the factory is better.
  - mothballed 5mo ago
    Bullshit. In nigeria it's infectious disease[]. Oh yes, and that includes HIV/AIDS, you know, what you are way more likely to get if you're in non-monogamous relationships (which perhaps is more likely for those that aren't married). And the #1 in general non-communicable risk factor reported here is, surprise, "air pollution." You know, that comes from factories and heavy industry. []https://ourworldindata.org/profile/health/nigeria https://ourworldindata.org/profile/health/nigeria ----- re: below due to throttling ------ >The data don't support your perspective. No, "my source" (yours is: nothing cited, so pretty hilarious rebuttal) shows 43% of deaths (not under 5, generally deaths) in 2023 from infectious disease and 1.8% from maternal disease. Lets see your sources on how that 1.8% rises above the 43% even when narrowed to "teenage girls." I saw elsewhere you posted some vague not even nigerian focused data that also included "unsafe abortions" to get to your claim (what does this even mean? Include things like taking a bunch of drugs and hoping it's only strong enough to kill the fetus?) You're literally proclaiming the data "don't support your perspective" when I'm refuting your uncited perspective with at least something, which is absolutely hilarious position for you to be proselytizing about data from. >Your source is focused on children under five. If you data source includes children under 10, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. If it includes boys, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. Lol so you didn't even look through it all the way. Because children under 5 was only one part of it. It showed general statistics as well. Unfortunately for your claim your provide .... nothing ... while damning those questioning your "trust me bro." You don't get to set an even lower standard of evidence for yourself than you demand of others.
    - svnt 5mo ago
      Your source is focused on children under five. If you data source includes children under 10, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. If it includes boys, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. The data don't support your perspective.
- somewhereoutth 5mo ago
  I'm also glad they have the option - and it does seem that many will take up that option. They themselves have judged that factory work is less bad than 'house' work, might be worth listening to them.
- wat10000 5mo ago
  The evidence is plentiful and obvious. Numerous such factories operate in free countries where people have a choice about what they do for a living. The locals willingly choose the factory work in large numbers. A young woman who thinks she would be better off marrying young instead of working in a factory is generally free to do so.
- cm2012 5mo ago
  Here is some evidence: https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-have-taste-freedom/ https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-h... “Ever since I started working in the garment factory, my life has changed. For the first time, I am not being looked upon as a burden. It has improved my status within the family,” said 19-year-old Chobi Mahmud, a garment worker in Dhaka.
  - za3faran 5mo ago
    That's an anecdote.
    - cm2012 5mo ago
      Here is a lot more. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-only-thing-worse-than-sweatshops https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-only-thing-worse-than-swea...
      - za3faran 5mo ago
        That's putting the cart before the horse. Notice how it only goes back to the 80's, way after the current usurious inflation driven economic system has been forced on the world.
        cm2012 5mo ago
        Sounds like you are rejecting evidence you dont want to confront
        mothballed 5mo ago
        I genuinely appreciated your evidence and take it to heart, thank you.
        za3faran 5mo ago
        No, I'm explaining away the supposed evidence.
hackable_sand 5mo ago
Africa is a continent
llmslave 5mo ago
it also stops them from having children when they get older too
dyauspitr 5mo ago
Yeah but more independence means it will eventually lead to the breakdown of family structures because if the US is anything to go by where 75% of divorces are women initiated you’re going to end up with broken families all over, dads in jail due to the inability to pay child support, parent less kids. In South Asia there is a tremendous amount of good that comes from having stable families even if everyone in it is not a 100% satisfied with their life. That being said, I’m not against any of this progress but you can’t just introduce these sweeping societal changes to millenia old traditions and expect the social order in the country to survive.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- watwut 5mo ago
  What you are hiding in the "not 100% satisfied" are higher levels of domestic violence and abuse. Living in such situation massively sux and is impossible to escape. There is also tremendous bad and horror in all that. Some peoples lives completely sux due to that.
  - dyauspitr 5mo ago
    It’s not hiding. Yes there may be domestic abuse but at the same time it’s not like the man is just cruising through life either. He is essentially having to work very hard for many many hours a week to provide for his family. So no one is really 100% happy but I would posit that the overall level of life satisfaction is much higher than whatever we have currently created in the United States (obviously this assumes that there is enough money for the basics and necessities of life and a middle class salary). You see these numbers bear out in India in happiness indexes if you specifically exclude people that are not in the upper or middle classes.
    - watwut 5mo ago
      Tell mw more about how Afghanistan men are oppressed compared to women. Or how child bride subject to lifelong violence and dependency has it as bad her husband, because he needs to work.

by cm2012 5mo ago

mothballed 5mo ago

[flagged]

coryrc 5mo ago
Don't be obtuse. You can quit a boss and never see them again.
- oklahomasports 5mo ago
  As a child factory slave?
  - nathan_compton 5mo ago
    No one seriously wants to compare the relative merits of child factory slavery and traditional child bride type situations. Like literally no one here is saying "its better to enslave children in factories compared to having them exchange their womb for protection from a local man."
    - mothballed 5mo ago
      Being forced to do anything is bad. Having an evaluation of your options is good. I don't think a facial argument can be made you're better off in the factory, although it might be true. I can think of many scenarios where I'd rather be in the factory, but also many where perhaps I'd prefer to have some selection of pastoral herding families to marry into over being funneled into "the one factory" where the god-billionaire has even more power than a vindictive husband. I'm certainly not going to look at a piece of paper that says "factory move into town and women (or chidlren) took the jobs" and then just declare the women are better off. What happened before that factory was there? Did they buy off the agricultural or herding land and turn it into a waste dump? Are the power dynamics against women even worse now, where before it was a decentralized network of husbands but now one centralized hierarchal company with bosses that are even more above the law than the husband was? I don't know.
      - throwway120385 5mo ago
        I'd be interested to know what happened when this transition took place in Europe and the UK, because we'd have the advantage of hundreds of years of history to inform the outcomes. It's easy to forget that our great grandparents and grandparents experienced roughly the same dichotomy between living on a farm raising kids and going to work for a capitalist owner of a factory for a meager wage. The romanticization of that period paints a picture of choice that I don't really buy. It seems like your desire to find nuance is validated by what I do already know.
      - cm2012 5mo ago
        Here is some evidence: https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-h https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-h... “Ever since I started working in the garment factory, my life has changed. For the first time, I am not being looked upon as a burden. It has improved my status within the family,” said 19-year-old Chobi Mahmud, a garment worker in Dhaka.
LastTrain 5mo ago
We're talking about children.
colechristensen 5mo ago
This is appalling. Delete it.
numpad0 5mo ago
is this saying like "we were happier with some nuts and occasional games, discovering fire was a mistake"
xp84 5mo ago
[flagged]
- teachrdan 5mo ago
  I can tell you're upset, but it's hard to understand what you're arguing for with those last two points. > 1. Let's not pretend that young people... don't make their own terrible decisions too. Look at the divorce rate and the rates of reported DV in the West. Do you believe that there will be happier marriages and less domestic violence when brides are 16 years old and have little to no agency in choosing who marries them? It seems like your argument should be that people should be more careful in choosing who they marry, not less. > 2. The Western way ("love marriage" + "women must work or the family will be in poverty") has led to most Western countries being on a downward spiral to literal extinction... This is just literal ignorance on your part. In every country in the world, higher quality of life (wealth, education, longevity, etc.) has lead to a decrease in population. This is not correlated to "love marriage" or "women must work or the family will be in poverty" -- indeed, women in less developed countries work more hours than their peers in developed countries, though often in the informal sector. I get that European- and US-based writers often assume their own culture's ideas are best. But your arguments are doing nothing to refute the article. Rather than adding to the discourse, you just seem like you're standing on a soapbox against women having agency.
  - ux266478 5mo ago
    > Do you believe that there will be happier marriages and less domestic violence when brides are 16 years old and have little to no agency in choosing who marries them? Comparison isn't necessarily binary. I'd posit these things are more likely determined by other socio-cultural variables, the individuals involved (which is partially contextualized by said variables) and a noisy baseline than whether or not a marriage is arranged. In otherwords, an independent variable (which means I disagree with the both of you) > In every country in the world, higher quality of life (wealth, education, longevity, etc.) has lead to a decrease in population. I'm not sure that holds. Do you mean that a higher quality of life leads to a decrease in fertility rate? It's obviously true that population booms eventually end, and historically large ones are usually followed by contraction as a correction. But overall those things you list result in an increase of population, it simply hits a ceiling and stabilizes. We just had the largest population boom in observable (more than recorded!) history, the industrial revolution dwarfs the agricultural one. It stands to reason we should see a pretty hefty population contraction which tapers into a very mild amount of growth until we raise the population ceiling once again. I don't think he's particularly right that low fertility rates are caused by "marriage for love". It's more like many places with low fertility rates are currently correcting for overly explosive growth experienced in recent history. Other places are only just now having their local population booms, or correcting for other population effects (like war.) It's very unlikely we will contract more than a few billion over the next couple hundred years. Keep in mind the industrial revolution is what caused us to rocket into the billions in the first place. For reference the upper bound estimated population of the 10th century is 400 million, and the upper bound of the 17th is about 500 million. 25% global growth over 700 years. The last 300 years is something like 1700%. Almost all rhetoric about birth rates never accounts for any of this. So again, independent variables.
svnt 5mo ago
Childhood pregnancy is the leading cause of death in teenage girls. We can say the factory is better.
- mothballed 5mo ago
  Bullshit. In nigeria it's infectious disease[]. Oh yes, and that includes HIV/AIDS, you know, what you are way more likely to get if you're in non-monogamous relationships (which perhaps is more likely for those that aren't married). And the #1 in general non-communicable risk factor reported here is, surprise, "air pollution." You know, that comes from factories and heavy industry. []https://ourworldindata.org/profile/health/nigeria https://ourworldindata.org/profile/health/nigeria ----- re: below due to throttling ------ >The data don't support your perspective. No, "my source" (yours is: nothing cited, so pretty hilarious rebuttal) shows 43% of deaths (not under 5, generally deaths) in 2023 from infectious disease and 1.8% from maternal disease. Lets see your sources on how that 1.8% rises above the 43% even when narrowed to "teenage girls." I saw elsewhere you posted some vague not even nigerian focused data that also included "unsafe abortions" to get to your claim (what does this even mean? Include things like taking a bunch of drugs and hoping it's only strong enough to kill the fetus?) You're literally proclaiming the data "don't support your perspective" when I'm refuting your uncited perspective with at least something, which is absolutely hilarious position for you to be proselytizing about data from. >Your source is focused on children under five. If you data source includes children under 10, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. If it includes boys, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. Lol so you didn't even look through it all the way. Because children under 5 was only one part of it. It showed general statistics as well. Unfortunately for your claim your provide .... nothing ... while damning those questioning your "trust me bro." You don't get to set an even lower standard of evidence for yourself than you demand of others.
  - svnt 5mo ago
    Your source is focused on children under five. If you data source includes children under 10, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. If it includes boys, none of them will be capable of becoming pregnant. The data don't support your perspective.
somewhereoutth 5mo ago
I'm also glad they have the option - and it does seem that many will take up that option. They themselves have judged that factory work is less bad than 'house' work, might be worth listening to them.
wat10000 5mo ago
The evidence is plentiful and obvious. Numerous such factories operate in free countries where people have a choice about what they do for a living. The locals willingly choose the factory work in large numbers. A young woman who thinks she would be better off marrying young instead of working in a factory is generally free to do so.
cm2012 5mo ago
Here is some evidence: https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-have-taste-freedom/ https://womensenews.org/2002/07/bangladesh-garment-workers-h... “Ever since I started working in the garment factory, my life has changed. For the first time, I am not being looked upon as a burden. It has improved my status within the family,” said 19-year-old Chobi Mahmud, a garment worker in Dhaka.
- za3faran 5mo ago
  That's an anecdote.
  - cm2012 5mo ago
    Here is a lot more. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-only-thing-worse-than-sweatshops https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-only-thing-worse-than-swea...
    - za3faran 5mo ago
      That's putting the cart before the horse. Notice how it only goes back to the 80's, way after the current usurious inflation driven economic system has been forced on the world.
      - cm2012 5mo ago
        Sounds like you are rejecting evidence you dont want to confront
        mothballed 5mo ago
        I genuinely appreciated your evidence and take it to heart, thank you.
        za3faran 5mo ago
        No, I'm explaining away the supposed evidence.

hackable_sand 5mo ago

Africa is a continent

llmslave 5mo ago

it also stops them from having children when they get older too

dyauspitr 5mo ago

Yeah but more independence means it will eventually lead to the breakdown of family structures because if the US is anything to go by where 75% of divorces are women initiated you’re going to end up with broken families all over, dads in jail due to the inability to pay child support, parent less kids. In South Asia there is a tremendous amount of good that comes from having stable families even if everyone in it is not a 100% satisfied with their life. That being said, I’m not against any of this progress but you can’t just introduce these sweeping societal changes to millenia old traditions and expect the social order in the country to survive.

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
watwut 5mo ago
What you are hiding in the "not 100% satisfied" are higher levels of domestic violence and abuse. Living in such situation massively sux and is impossible to escape. There is also tremendous bad and horror in all that. Some peoples lives completely sux due to that.
- dyauspitr 5mo ago
  It’s not hiding. Yes there may be domestic abuse but at the same time it’s not like the man is just cruising through life either. He is essentially having to work very hard for many many hours a week to provide for his family. So no one is really 100% happy but I would posit that the overall level of life satisfaction is much higher than whatever we have currently created in the United States (obviously this assumes that there is enough money for the basics and necessities of life and a middle class salary). You see these numbers bear out in India in happiness indexes if you specifically exclude people that are not in the upper or middle classes.
  - watwut 5mo ago
    Tell mw more about how Afghanistan men are oppressed compared to women. Or how child bride subject to lifelong violence and dependency has it as bad her husband, because he needs to work.