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> Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see

> Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. Coal is still the majority of generation capacity [1] in China and China continues to build a lot more coal [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China [2]: https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-emissions-242abe76eb69f5a362e977de74ff3254 https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-e... > BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion Is this supposed to help virality or something? "US decline"?

snapcaster 6mo ago
As an american i feel it. have you ever visited China? it's sad man, in more and more industries america is only able to compete by banning china from even contesting the market Not just on dumping or price, actual product quality, innovation and value. It's impossible to visit a Huawei store in Beijing and not feel it in your bones
- Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
  > As an american i feel it How do we have a productive discussion about our feelings on a tech site?
  - surgical_fire 6mo ago
    You start with a non-sequitur on China using coal to generate electricity. Because that, too, is feelings. In this case, insecurity.
    - Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
      > Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. EDIT: thanks I didn't realize I forgot to add the context of my original reply to the post. Edited it to add context.
    - kakacik 6mo ago
      This site is fascinating place for me, especially comment section. Sometimes, visibly smart folks end up shooting their own feet with things like oversized egos, unwillingness to entertain any idea contrary to their already-held beliefs and many others. Makes me more humble and lowers my expectations of humanity, while in the same time giving me more hope for the future. Bizzare mix, but pretty fun with controversial topics
      - Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
        This feels like subtweeting (vaguely referencing bad behaviors in this thread without naming anything or anyone) so I'm curious what you're going for with this comment.
  - snapcaster 5mo ago
    maybe engage with it because we're all humans with feelings and they're incredibly powerful computational shortcuts? thinking it's virtuous to be an emotionless automaton is ideology (kinda like feelings!)
- lenerdenator 6mo ago
  > As an american i feel it. have you ever visited China? it's sad man, in more and more industries america is only able to compete by banning china from even contesting the market That's how China was able to compete: banning America from contesting the market.
blackjack_ 6mo ago
Who cares? China is revving up energy production in renewables to out eat the fossil production, but all of these processes are energy hungry, and you have to pay the non renewable cost to create the renewables. But then you don’t need the fossil fuels anymore. My solar panels will produce for the next 30+ years and power my EV with very little effort or maintaining, whereas the fuel I used to drive my ICE car to the store yesterday is gone forever and will need millions of years of dead things to recreate. This is literally using fossil fuels to create renewable energy, which is the ultimate sane and responsible way to use the energy from fossil fuels.
- Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
  The US with its high natgas generation is much cleaner than a majority coal driven generation scheme. I'm puzzled why we talk about "US decline" when we're pretty much creating paeans to marginal energy construction. Sure China's trajectory is good. But it's still not at the point where it's cleaner per capita than the US and it's still quite far from that. Let's talk about reality here. The US shouldn't rest on its laurels, but we need to be real about where we are not how we feel A lot can change. This administration has 2.5 years left. I'm tired of Reddit and Twitter doom-based virality hacks subsuming every net forum.
  - ericmay 6mo ago
    > I'm puzzled why we talk about "US decline" when we're pretty much creating paeans to marginal energy construction. It's literally just a mind virus and folks hear it on the news and like the Chinese hypersonic missiles they just hear some capability or reporting and then don't know what to do with it except to parrot it. They don't think about China's lying down culture [1], for example, ghost cities and over-building doesn't seem to phase them [2] (communism tends to waste a lot of money and drive economic inefficiency), China's over-capacity for manufacturing and now struggling to find markets for goods [3], local corruption, disappearing of folks who disagree with their government, and more. Even with respect to infrastructure. Yea they built a lot. Good luck maintaining it at an affordable cost. China has more manpower to do literally throw bodies at the problem, but economic physics will still win out and China's declining population and demographic crises and xenophobic culture don't help. Now, with that being said, China has done some absolutely amazing and wonderful things. But we shouldn't confuse China's progress with a corresponding American decline. Instead, the more sophisticated model is looking at both American and Chinese progress while other nations, and the EU are struggling. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/world/asia/china-slackers-tangping.html [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2026/02/09/sp-i-china-property-slump-worse-than-expected.html [3] https://www.ft.com/content/6822f01a-147a-4b04-a9d6-edeefc25d0d8?syn-25a6b1a6=1
standeven 6mo ago
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RobotToaster 6mo ago
As much as coal is bad for the environment, eliminating it completely isn't a great idea. It's one of the few sources of energy capable of a black start https://www.theblackoutreport.co.uk/2023/06/13/black-start/ https://www.theblackoutreport.co.uk/2023/06/13/black-start/ Renewables generally aren't capable of a black start, wind turbines in particular use induction generators that require external power.
- rootusrootus 6mo ago
  > It's one of the few sources of energy capable of a black start Doesn't hydropower count for like half of our black start capability? > Renewables generally aren't capable of a black start, wind turbines in particular use induction generators that require external power. Wind farms and PV both can use batteries to support black start capability.
- SAI_Peregrinus 5mo ago
  Batteries & solar (with sunlight) can black start if they have grid-forming inverters. Grid-following inverters are cheaper, but there's nothing physical or engineering-based that prevents using grid-forming inverters on enough renewable sources to black start when needed, just the economics of cheaper installations.

snapcaster 6mo ago

As an american i feel it. have you ever visited China? it's sad man, in more and more industries america is only able to compete by banning china from even contesting the market Not just on dumping or price, actual product quality, innovation and value. It's impossible to visit a Huawei store in Beijing and not feel it in your bones

Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
> As an american i feel it How do we have a productive discussion about our feelings on a tech site?
- surgical_fire 6mo ago
  You start with a non-sequitur on China using coal to generate electricity. Because that, too, is feelings. In this case, insecurity.
  - Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
    > Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. EDIT: thanks I didn't realize I forgot to add the context of my original reply to the post. Edited it to add context.
  - kakacik 6mo ago
    This site is fascinating place for me, especially comment section. Sometimes, visibly smart folks end up shooting their own feet with things like oversized egos, unwillingness to entertain any idea contrary to their already-held beliefs and many others. Makes me more humble and lowers my expectations of humanity, while in the same time giving me more hope for the future. Bizzare mix, but pretty fun with controversial topics
    - Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
      This feels like subtweeting (vaguely referencing bad behaviors in this thread without naming anything or anyone) so I'm curious what you're going for with this comment.
- snapcaster 5mo ago
  maybe engage with it because we're all humans with feelings and they're incredibly powerful computational shortcuts? thinking it's virtuous to be an emotionless automaton is ideology (kinda like feelings!)
lenerdenator 6mo ago
> As an american i feel it. have you ever visited China? it's sad man, in more and more industries america is only able to compete by banning china from even contesting the market That's how China was able to compete: banning America from contesting the market.

blackjack_ 6mo ago

Who cares? China is revving up energy production in renewables to out eat the fossil production, but all of these processes are energy hungry, and you have to pay the non renewable cost to create the renewables. But then you don’t need the fossil fuels anymore. My solar panels will produce for the next 30+ years and power my EV with very little effort or maintaining, whereas the fuel I used to drive my ICE car to the store yesterday is gone forever and will need millions of years of dead things to recreate. This is literally using fossil fuels to create renewable energy, which is the ultimate sane and responsible way to use the energy from fossil fuels.

Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
The US with its high natgas generation is much cleaner than a majority coal driven generation scheme. I'm puzzled why we talk about "US decline" when we're pretty much creating paeans to marginal energy construction. Sure China's trajectory is good. But it's still not at the point where it's cleaner per capita than the US and it's still quite far from that. Let's talk about reality here. The US shouldn't rest on its laurels, but we need to be real about where we are not how we feel A lot can change. This administration has 2.5 years left. I'm tired of Reddit and Twitter doom-based virality hacks subsuming every net forum.
- ericmay 6mo ago
  > I'm puzzled why we talk about "US decline" when we're pretty much creating paeans to marginal energy construction. It's literally just a mind virus and folks hear it on the news and like the Chinese hypersonic missiles they just hear some capability or reporting and then don't know what to do with it except to parrot it. They don't think about China's lying down culture [1], for example, ghost cities and over-building doesn't seem to phase them [2] (communism tends to waste a lot of money and drive economic inefficiency), China's over-capacity for manufacturing and now struggling to find markets for goods [3], local corruption, disappearing of folks who disagree with their government, and more. Even with respect to infrastructure. Yea they built a lot. Good luck maintaining it at an affordable cost. China has more manpower to do literally throw bodies at the problem, but economic physics will still win out and China's declining population and demographic crises and xenophobic culture don't help. Now, with that being said, China has done some absolutely amazing and wonderful things. But we shouldn't confuse China's progress with a corresponding American decline. Instead, the more sophisticated model is looking at both American and Chinese progress while other nations, and the EU are struggling. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/world/asia/china-slackers-tangping.html [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2026/02/09/sp-i-china-property-slump-worse-than-expected.html [3] https://www.ft.com/content/6822f01a-147a-4b04-a9d6-edeefc25d0d8?syn-25a6b1a6=1

standeven 6mo ago

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RobotToaster 6mo ago

As much as coal is bad for the environment, eliminating it completely isn't a great idea. It's one of the few sources of energy capable of a black start https://www.theblackoutreport.co.uk/2023/06/13/black-start/ https://www.theblackoutreport.co.uk/2023/06/13/black-start/ Renewables generally aren't capable of a black start, wind turbines in particular use induction generators that require external power.

rootusrootus 6mo ago
> It's one of the few sources of energy capable of a black start Doesn't hydropower count for like half of our black start capability? > Renewables generally aren't capable of a black start, wind turbines in particular use induction generators that require external power. Wind farms and PV both can use batteries to support black start capability.
SAI_Peregrinus 5mo ago
Batteries & solar (with sunlight) can black start if they have grid-forming inverters. Grid-following inverters are cheaper, but there's nothing physical or engineering-based that prevents using grid-forming inverters on enough renewable sources to black start when needed, just the economics of cheaper installations.