3 ms·
In this area of research, there's this classic trap that many fall into (including myself, many times). You focus on modeling things like the vibrating string,
by pierrec 5mo ago
In this area of research, there's this classic trap that many fall into (including myself, many times). You focus on modeling things like the vibrating string, the resonant body, etc. to perfection. But it still sounds, uh, not great, because the more important and difficult part is modeling detailed control and the human/instrument interface. Air fluctuations around the violin sound like a fun experiment, but I don't think you'll get much additional realism from that, compared to a simple/classical impulse response model.
Even in this case, they're choosing the easy path (plucked, pizzicato), but the human/instrument interface is still audibly oversimplified while the resonant body has an unnecessary amount of "realism". The sound of pizzicato has a distinct character because the player's finger/skin slides a bit on the string as they're plucking, among other factors, which sounds like it's missing here. This can be tricky to implement because it's not necessarily a one-way impulse. The string is already vibrating and affects the finger, hence "interface".
This applies 10x more with bowed strings.
- shiandow 5mo agoPut differently, it takes years of practice to get a decent sound out of a real violin. If your model doesn't sound like someone's strangling a cat then it's probably not realistic.
- saidnooneever 5mo agoits not _that_ hard -_-. just that a lot of music on violin played solo is acquired taste... just like many flutes, or drums. the real sound comes when its played with other instruments in concert. it doesnt need years of practice it needs patience the right setting and an extra joint on ur pinky :p
- shiandow 5mo agoMy experience may be a bit biased by having to listen to children attempting to learn the instrument.
- saghm 5mo agoI think it's hard in comparison to non-bowed string instruments. Even someone on their first day playing a guitar can pluck a single open string and not have it sound terrible, but getting a decent tone when bowing an open string on a violin is something that might take months for someone to do even sometimes.
- kashunstva 5mo ago> it doesnt need years of practice It absolutely requires years of practice to play the violin at an expert level. This is well documented. > the real sound comes when its played with other instruments in concert So in the violin repertoire, the Bach sonatas and partitas for unaccompanied violin, the Ysaÿe sonatas and the Paganini caprices are what, not real?
- Fraterkes 5mo agoThe point of this research doesn't seem to be to generate a nice sounding digital instrument, but to give violin makers a rough idea of what the instrument will sound like for different shapes / materials. This is useful for comparing designs, even if you don't simulate a human performance with complete fidelity. So I don't know if your criticism makes much sense.
- traderj0e 5mo agoEither way, the demo doesn't sound like a violin yet. It's really cool that they got it from just a CT scan, and I get the usefulness if they're able to fill in the gaps.
- pierrec 5mo agoFair point, my (and many people's) point of view is very virtual instrument centric. I'd still say that better impulses would improve the tool for the potential luthier application.
- rendaw 5mo agoHow useful is it though if it doesn't resemble what it will sound like when actually played? IIUC the difference between this and a human playing is to some degree subtle. But the audio difference between different violin designs will also be subtle.
- analog31 5mo agoI'm a working jazz bassist. Plucking a string is an art unto itself. What struck me about the clip was it sounded like the strings were plucked by something other than a finger.
- Slow_Hand 5mo agoYeah. It sounds more like a dulcimer (hammered). If someone asked me to guess the instrument violin would not have been my first guess.
- yowayb 5mo ago[dead]
- mochomocha 5mo agoEvery physical model has its strengths and weaknesses. In this case you're correct that no emphasis has been put on the human-instrument coupling, but they've worked harder than usual on the air/instrument coupling which makes sense givwn their goal of helping violin makers. However there are plenty of research work on physical modeling between human and instrument (Serafin, Woodhouse, Chaigne etc from 1-2 decades ago) esp for violin. For string plucking & striking specifically, the coupling is modeled in a few commercial products (Pianoteq is a popular one) [disclaimer: I used to sell a guitar software doing this as well and met some of these acoustics experts a long time ago - these were fun times going down the rabbit hole of physical modeling]
- saidnooneever 5mo agoi think its kind of funny, simulating this must be incredibly tedious while there are many songs with good fake violins... you mention a few details theres so many more if you think about it..the human-instrument interaction has all sorts of imperfections. tension in shoulders can make u bend the neck a bit. tension in fingers too much might pull out of tune. pushing not 100% straight along the bow might shift it sideways a bit changing how it crosses strings. Then ofc at what position is the bow on the strings (closer/futher from bridge). humans are not perfect machines but in those imperfection lies the beauty. A perfectly played instrument is played by a human and has this 'humanization' across all areas where human and instrument and music itself interact imho. if you produce music digitally this instantly will show, because all your instruments will sound flat and boring if you dont humanize.
- _s_a_m_ 5mo agoit's just childish ridiculous overselling, exactly the type of BS I expect from uneducated technologists. We see this BS all the time on HN.