6 ms·

There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attrib

by rmc 14y ago

There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)", or more simply "anything based on race". Lots of people like this definition because it's a nice, simple and objective defintion and it means black people in the UK can be racist to white people, or that affirmative action is racist. I think this is the definition you're using. There's another definition, which is that racist actions are actions that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. Right now, if modern UK life was a video game, "white male" would be an easier difficulty level than "black male". There are statistically less problems for the "white male" group. Racist actions is talk that re-enforced that imbalance, and attempts to undo the power imbalance is not racist. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means that affirmative action is not racist, and attempts to stop is could be construed as racist (since stopping affirmative action can re-enforce power imbalances). This is the definition I use. So no, complaining about the lack of non-white people is not racist.

9392732 14y ago
Would complaining about a lack of males entering medical school or presenting at a conference on child care be discriminatory?
- rmc 14y ago
  Medical School? Like for doctors? I thought that was roughly 1:1, rather than 15:1 in tech? If the figures are well off and men are being systemetically disadvantaged due to their gender in medical school, then yes we should have affirmative active for it. I'm skeptical though because traditionally medicine has been heavily male dominated. Yes we should probably do something to get more men into child care & nursing & primary school teaching. that wouldn't be sexist. And yes, more men should do traditionally feminine activities. I'm male and took up crochet recently. I can empathise with women who work in tech. Tech is all male. Crochet is all female.
  - 9392732 14y ago
    http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 White people are under represented relative to the population in UK medical schools in this study http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 Women out number men in western medical school Will we ever see drives to increase white males into this profession? I doubt it There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist (My partner is a female doctor)
    - josephlord 14y ago
      > There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist Are women definitely the majority in surgery as opposed to medicine? My impression was that men dominated the surgical specialisms. This isn't really intended to be a knock on your argument but to ask you to double check this point. In answer to the general point I have heard discussion of ways to encourage men to become Primary School teachers although that might have been more to balance out the role models for young children than being a matter of pure justice.
      - rmc 14y ago
        encourage men to become Primary School teachers although that might have been more to balance out the role models for young children than being a matter of pure justice. It can be both.
obstacle1 14y ago
Those aren't separate definitions. The second is simply a justification of certain forms of racism as worth the harm they cause to the victimized group because of the benefit to the disadvantaged group; it uses the first definition you gave in defining itself. So yes, by your own definition, complaining about the lack of non-white people would be racist -- but worth it. It's also worth noting that there is a difference between complaining about a lack of non-white people and complaining about the existence of a certain amount of white people on a panel.
brianchu 14y ago
The problem is that having conference speakers who happen to be disproportionate in race does not immediately translate to racism. To say that the composition of a group of speakers is "designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races" simply based off of the proportion of races of people in the panel is a logical leap that is not necessarily warranted.
- rmc 14y ago
  If you're in a under-represented group seeing that "all people who do Ruby/Tech/IT/knitting/nursing/$ACTIVITY are members of $OTHER_GROUP" can be just another reminder that your group shouldn't be here, that you'll stick out, that you'll be the different one here. We have numerous expressions in the English language saying that lots of little things can build up: The straw that broke the camel's back, death by a thousand cuts. Let's try to get rid of as many straws as we can, and get rid of as many cuts as we can.
  - aes256 14y ago
    I can't fathom why racial minorities would not feel welcome at such a conference. Do they think people are going to be surprised that they are in attendance, disapprove of them being there, or look down on them? It's a programming conference, not a meeting of the KKK.
    - rmc 14y ago
      Do they think people are going to … look down on them? Yes that's what happens now. Dell conference: comeidan brought on by Dell "The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2174903/dell-issues-apology-women http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2174903/dell-issues... CouchDB "Perform like a porn star" http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk Tech company organises a code jam. "Perks: Women" http://readwrite.com/2012/03/20/how-casual-sexism-put-sqoot-in http://readwrite.com/2012/03/20/how-casual-sexism-put-sqoot-... More here: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents
Wintamute 14y ago
I like the core thinking behind your definition of racism (that we should all self analyse and take affirmative action to fix problems), but I don't think it's necessarily helpful, or even logical to define racism in this way. If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions for emotive terms then we're not communicating effectively, and probably needlessly annoying each other. I'm not sure I agree fully with any of your definitions of racism really. The sort of racism under discussion here is simply and obviously a) believing in racial inferiorities and then b) discriminating against them. Of course there exists a spectrum of racism here, and where observed actions appear on this spectrum is probably the most lucrative area to look at. Rational discussion can only occur once terms have been agreed and defined, and using your own definitions is not all that constructive.
- saraid216 14y ago
  Actually, most modern academic work on racism goes by his latter definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological
  - aes256 14y ago
    Of course, if sociologists accepted the former definition, they wouldn't have anything to talk about. Conflating the two definitions and describing people as 'racist' for re-enforcing racial imbalances in society is disingenuous. A lot of people oppose affirmative action (thus earning the label 'racist' according to the latter definition) not because they are prejudiced, but simply because they do not believe in the efficacy of the process.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "A lot of people oppose affirmative action (thus earning the label 'racist' according to the latter definition) not because they are prejudiced, but simply because they do not believe in the efficacy of the process." As with many things in life, it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it that determines context and intent.
  - 14y ago
mduerksen 14y ago
It might not be racist, but could be ideologically charged. The mere observation of an uneven distribution is not enough evidence for a power imbalance. It could also just be caused by deviation of interests, which would be totally fine. Power imbalances cannot be reliably detected from the outside, so I won't comment on the ruby conf case.
hugh4life 14y ago
"So no, complaining about the lack of non-white people is not racist." Implying that all white people are the same and that there is no internal diversity within white people is racist.
- rmc 14y ago
  No-one suggested that.
  - obstacle1 14y ago
    By definition complaining about a panel's being "100% white males" is suggesting the lowest common denominator of skin color and gender. The twitter complainers in this case did not care about the panel's nationalities, ethnicities, first languages, etc., just that they were white. The suggestion is clear.
anewguy 14y ago
In popular discourse, "racist" is synonymous with "the-worst-thing-ever" because most real people believe in the first definition. They associate it with things like concentration camps, racial slurs, and vigilante violence. Social Marxists are pulling a nice propaganda coup by using the popular term "racist" with their different class struggle definition. But once their definition gains ground, they will find that they have defeated themselves and that nobody cares about racism anymore. How much do you think the man on the street cares that a disproportionate number of ruby experts are white/Asian? Or that most movie actors are white? Or that "nude" toned makeup in historically European countries matches white people's skin? Not a quantum of care will be given.

by rmc 14y ago

9392732 14y ago

Would complaining about a lack of males entering medical school or presenting at a conference on child care be discriminatory?

rmc 14y ago
Medical School? Like for doctors? I thought that was roughly 1:1, rather than 15:1 in tech? If the figures are well off and men are being systemetically disadvantaged due to their gender in medical school, then yes we should have affirmative active for it. I'm skeptical though because traditionally medicine has been heavily male dominated. Yes we should probably do something to get more men into child care & nursing & primary school teaching. that wouldn't be sexist. And yes, more men should do traditionally feminine activities. I'm male and took up crochet recently. I can empathise with women who work in tech. Tech is all male. Crochet is all female.
- 9392732 14y ago
  http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 White people are under represented relative to the population in UK medical schools in this study http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 Women out number men in western medical school Will we ever see drives to increase white males into this profession? I doubt it There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist (My partner is a female doctor)
  - josephlord 14y ago
    > There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist Are women definitely the majority in surgery as opposed to medicine? My impression was that men dominated the surgical specialisms. This isn't really intended to be a knock on your argument but to ask you to double check this point. In answer to the general point I have heard discussion of ways to encourage men to become Primary School teachers although that might have been more to balance out the role models for young children than being a matter of pure justice.
    - rmc 14y ago
      encourage men to become Primary School teachers although that might have been more to balance out the role models for young children than being a matter of pure justice. It can be both.

obstacle1 14y ago

Those aren't separate definitions. The second is simply a justification of certain forms of racism as worth the harm they cause to the victimized group because of the benefit to the disadvantaged group; it uses the first definition you gave in defining itself. So yes, by your own definition, complaining about the lack of non-white people would be racist -- but worth it. It's also worth noting that there is a difference between complaining about a lack of non-white people and complaining about the existence of a certain amount of white people on a panel.

brianchu 14y ago

The problem is that having conference speakers who happen to be disproportionate in race does not immediately translate to racism. To say that the composition of a group of speakers is "designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races" simply based off of the proportion of races of people in the panel is a logical leap that is not necessarily warranted.

rmc 14y ago
If you're in a under-represented group seeing that "all people who do Ruby/Tech/IT/knitting/nursing/$ACTIVITY are members of $OTHER_GROUP" can be just another reminder that your group shouldn't be here, that you'll stick out, that you'll be the different one here. We have numerous expressions in the English language saying that lots of little things can build up: The straw that broke the camel's back, death by a thousand cuts. Let's try to get rid of as many straws as we can, and get rid of as many cuts as we can.
- aes256 14y ago
  I can't fathom why racial minorities would not feel welcome at such a conference. Do they think people are going to be surprised that they are in attendance, disapprove of them being there, or look down on them? It's a programming conference, not a meeting of the KKK.
  - rmc 14y ago
    Do they think people are going to … look down on them? Yes that's what happens now. Dell conference: comeidan brought on by Dell "The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2174903/dell-issues-apology-women http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2174903/dell-issues... CouchDB "Perform like a porn star" http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk Tech company organises a code jam. "Perks: Women" http://readwrite.com/2012/03/20/how-casual-sexism-put-sqoot-in http://readwrite.com/2012/03/20/how-casual-sexism-put-sqoot-... More here: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents

Wintamute 14y ago

I like the core thinking behind your definition of racism (that we should all self analyse and take affirmative action to fix problems), but I don't think it's necessarily helpful, or even logical to define racism in this way. If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions for emotive terms then we're not communicating effectively, and probably needlessly annoying each other. I'm not sure I agree fully with any of your definitions of racism really. The sort of racism under discussion here is simply and obviously a) believing in racial inferiorities and then b) discriminating against them. Of course there exists a spectrum of racism here, and where observed actions appear on this spectrum is probably the most lucrative area to look at. Rational discussion can only occur once terms have been agreed and defined, and using your own definitions is not all that constructive.

saraid216 14y ago
Actually, most modern academic work on racism goes by his latter definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological
- aes256 14y ago
  Of course, if sociologists accepted the former definition, they wouldn't have anything to talk about. Conflating the two definitions and describing people as 'racist' for re-enforcing racial imbalances in society is disingenuous. A lot of people oppose affirmative action (thus earning the label 'racist' according to the latter definition) not because they are prejudiced, but simply because they do not believe in the efficacy of the process.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "A lot of people oppose affirmative action (thus earning the label 'racist' according to the latter definition) not because they are prejudiced, but simply because they do not believe in the efficacy of the process." As with many things in life, it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it that determines context and intent.
- 14y ago

mduerksen 14y ago

It might not be racist, but could be ideologically charged. The mere observation of an uneven distribution is not enough evidence for a power imbalance. It could also just be caused by deviation of interests, which would be totally fine. Power imbalances cannot be reliably detected from the outside, so I won't comment on the ruby conf case.

hugh4life 14y ago

"So no, complaining about the lack of non-white people is not racist." Implying that all white people are the same and that there is no internal diversity within white people is racist.

rmc 14y ago
No-one suggested that.
- obstacle1 14y ago
  By definition complaining about a panel's being "100% white males" is suggesting the lowest common denominator of skin color and gender. The twitter complainers in this case did not care about the panel's nationalities, ethnicities, first languages, etc., just that they were white. The suggestion is clear.

anewguy 14y ago

In popular discourse, "racist" is synonymous with "the-worst-thing-ever" because most real people believe in the first definition. They associate it with things like concentration camps, racial slurs, and vigilante violence. Social Marxists are pulling a nice propaganda coup by using the popular term "racist" with their different class struggle definition. But once their definition gains ground, they will find that they have defeated themselves and that nobody cares about racism anymore. How much do you think the man on the street cares that a disproportionate number of ruby experts are white/Asian? Or that most movie actors are white? Or that "nude" toned makeup in historically European countries matches white people's skin? Not a quantum of care will be given.