4 ms·

Out of curiosity, why are the complainers in this case not being called out for their own racism/discrimination? The fact that a panel consists of white males,

Out of curiosity, why are the complainers in this case not being called out for their own racism/discrimination? The fact that a panel consists of white males, straight males, or purple elephants is not in itself evidence of discrimination. It is entirely possible that these were the most qualified of all applicants to have submitted to this conference. Without knowing the details of the applicant pool, anyone screaming "racism! sexism! rape culture! etc!" is not fighting for a worthy cause, but being destructive and hysterical. I hope that historically status quo groups get over the guilt and act in the right going forward. The goal of a technical presentation should not be to filter speakers via quota into race and sexuality; it should be to discuss technical things.

unconed 14y ago
Indeed: http://unicornfree.com/2010/all-schnitzelconf-speakers-are-male-white-have-that-flippy-do/ http://unicornfree.com/2010/all-schnitzelconf-speakers-are-m...
rmc 14y ago
There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)", or more simply "anything based on race". Lots of people like this definition because it's a nice, simple and objective defintion and it means black people in the UK can be racist to white people, or that affirmative action is racist. I think this is the definition you're using. There's another definition, which is that racist actions are actions that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. Right now, if modern UK life was a video game, "white male" would be an easier difficulty level than "black male". There are statistically less problems for the "white male" group. Racist actions is talk that re-enforced that imbalance, and attempts to undo the power imbalance is not racist. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means that affirmative action is not racist, and attempts to stop is could be construed as racist (since stopping affirmative action can re-enforce power imbalances). This is the definition I use. So no, complaining about the lack of non-white people is not racist.
- 9392732 14y ago
  Would complaining about a lack of males entering medical school or presenting at a conference on child care be discriminatory?
  - rmc 14y ago
    Medical School? Like for doctors? I thought that was roughly 1:1, rather than 15:1 in tech? If the figures are well off and men are being systemetically disadvantaged due to their gender in medical school, then yes we should have affirmative active for it. I'm skeptical though because traditionally medicine has been heavily male dominated. Yes we should probably do something to get more men into child care & nursing & primary school teaching. that wouldn't be sexist. And yes, more men should do traditionally feminine activities. I'm male and took up crochet recently. I can empathise with women who work in tech. Tech is all male. Crochet is all female.
    - 9392732 14y ago
      http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 White people are under represented relative to the population in UK medical schools in this study http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 Women out number men in western medical school Will we ever see drives to increase white males into this profession? I doubt it There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist (My partner is a female doctor)
      - josephlord 14y ago
        > There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist Are women definitely the majority in surgery as opposed to medicine? My impression was that men dominated the surgical specialisms. This isn't really intended to be a knock on your argument but to ask you to double check this point. In answer to the general point I have heard discussion of ways to encourage men to become Primary School teachers although that might have been more to balance out the role models for young children than being a matter of pure justice.
klaut 14y ago
Excellent point! I see more and more of this hysterical attitude in tech. If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you.
- EliRivers 14y ago
  "If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you." This sounds like a straw man argument. You've created the fictional idea of a person whose interest in a conference is solely the diversity of the panel, as if there are people who don't even care what the conference is about or have any idea of the subject matter; they just like seeing different kinds of people on panels.
  - klaut 14y ago
    well, this is exactly what I get from all those who are complaining. To me, they seem more interested in sex/gender/race of the speakers than WHAT is going to be presented.
    - EliRivers 14y ago
      Squeaky wheel gets the grease. These people are clearly willing to complain. No complaints about what is being presented implies only that they are satisfied with what is being presented; it does not imply that they do not care about it.
    - saraid216 14y ago
      Except that the point of the conference was to present the audience with itself as a community. If the conference was only about the talks, then they might as well just make a YouTube channel and ask people to send them videos of talks.
joeycfan 14y ago
It doesn't matter. What matters is the sponsors spooked and pulled the money. Show over.

unconed 14y ago

Indeed: http://unicornfree.com/2010/all-schnitzelconf-speakers-are-male-white-have-that-flippy-do/ http://unicornfree.com/2010/all-schnitzelconf-speakers-are-m...

rmc 14y ago

There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)", or more simply "anything based on race". Lots of people like this definition because it's a nice, simple and objective defintion and it means black people in the UK can be racist to white people, or that affirmative action is racist. I think this is the definition you're using. There's another definition, which is that racist actions are actions that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. Right now, if modern UK life was a video game, "white male" would be an easier difficulty level than "black male". There are statistically less problems for the "white male" group. Racist actions is talk that re-enforced that imbalance, and attempts to undo the power imbalance is not racist. This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means that affirmative action is not racist, and attempts to stop is could be construed as racist (since stopping affirmative action can re-enforce power imbalances). This is the definition I use. So no, complaining about the lack of non-white people is not racist.

9392732 14y ago
Would complaining about a lack of males entering medical school or presenting at a conference on child care be discriminatory?
- rmc 14y ago
  Medical School? Like for doctors? I thought that was roughly 1:1, rather than 15:1 in tech? If the figures are well off and men are being systemetically disadvantaged due to their gender in medical school, then yes we should have affirmative active for it. I'm skeptical though because traditionally medicine has been heavily male dominated. Yes we should probably do something to get more men into child care & nursing & primary school teaching. that wouldn't be sexist. And yes, more men should do traditionally feminine activities. I'm male and took up crochet recently. I can empathise with women who work in tech. Tech is all male. Crochet is all female.
  - 9392732 14y ago
    http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545 White people are under represented relative to the population in UK medical schools in this study http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748 Women out number men in western medical school Will we ever see drives to increase white males into this profession? I doubt it There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist (My partner is a female doctor)
    - josephlord 14y ago
      > There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist Are women definitely the majority in surgery as opposed to medicine? My impression was that men dominated the surgical specialisms. This isn't really intended to be a knock on your argument but to ask you to double check this point. In answer to the general point I have heard discussion of ways to encourage men to become Primary School teachers although that might have been more to balance out the role models for young children than being a matter of pure justice.

klaut 14y ago

Excellent point! I see more and more of this hysterical attitude in tech. If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you.

EliRivers 14y ago
"If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you." This sounds like a straw man argument. You've created the fictional idea of a person whose interest in a conference is solely the diversity of the panel, as if there are people who don't even care what the conference is about or have any idea of the subject matter; they just like seeing different kinds of people on panels.
- klaut 14y ago
  well, this is exactly what I get from all those who are complaining. To me, they seem more interested in sex/gender/race of the speakers than WHAT is going to be presented.
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    Squeaky wheel gets the grease. These people are clearly willing to complain. No complaints about what is being presented implies only that they are satisfied with what is being presented; it does not imply that they do not care about it.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    Except that the point of the conference was to present the audience with itself as a community. If the conference was only about the talks, then they might as well just make a YouTube channel and ask people to send them videos of talks.

joeycfan 14y ago

It doesn't matter. What matters is the sponsors spooked and pulled the money. Show over.