4 ms·

A lot of fast chargers are over $1 per kwh so unless you have access to home charging there isn't much room for savings.

iso1631 5mo ago
Given that the majority of people in the uk have or can have access to home charging it's not a major problem https://www.racfoundation.org/research/mobility/still-standing-still https://www.racfoundation.org/research/mobility/still-standi... Wales – 75% of households have – or could have – off-street parking and EV charging England – 68% Scotland – 63% In London, sure, most homes don't have off-street parking and ev charging, but then only half the households in London have a car https://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-2024-car-ownership-trends-acc.pdf https://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-2024-car-ownersh...
- benj111 5mo ago
  I think you're somewhat underselling the problem. Even in Wales, 25% can't. This isn't a figure you can ignore. And that's a hypothetical, it relies on landlords playing ball etc. then there's the social issues. On the north of England we have lots of terraces built for mill workers, these aren't owned by the richest on society. So then you're in the situation of charging the poorest more for transport. And these are necessarily on towns with good transport links (think 1 bus and hour).
  - iso1631 5mo ago
    Many of those "can't" won't have cars. 20% of households in Wales have no car. Now clearly that 25% and 20% won't overlap exactly, but they will overlap a lot When 80% of cars in the UK are electric and 20% are those households who rely on public streets to store their belongings for 23 hours a day, then sure that will be a problem Given that there's only about 2 million electric cars in the UK, yet 18 million homes which can charge electric cars, that's a long way off.
afavour 5mo ago
But compared to the US home charging via a mains outlet is much more viable because it's 240v vs 110v. If you plug you car overnight you'll typically have enough charge to last you the next day.
- giobox 5mo ago
  This isn't as big an advantage as you might think, as a huge number of US homes have 240v sockets to power the clothes dryer: > https://getneocharge.com/a/blog/identifying-your-240v-dryer-outlet-a-guide-to-powering-your-ev-with-an-ev-dryer-splitter?srsltid=AfmBOooguZvdUveGJgshVDUtnsHh9sYfEaY1f3Us9FoQmC9hNU0wOWdL https://getneocharge.com/a/blog/identifying-your-240v-dryer-... Almost everyone I know with an EV charging at home just reused the 240v dryer socket to avoid paying for a dedicated fast charger. It's often cheaper too to have an electrician fit a new 240v socket instead of the dedicated charger as well.
  - baq 5mo ago
    Home chargers with dedicated sockets is three phase 400v actually over here in the EU and every single home, and even relatively new apartments have that because of induction stoves.
    - rootusrootus 5mo ago
      > every single home Let me guess, you live in Germany? :) Three phase power is definitely not 100% in the EU. Not even in Germany, though adoption does tend to be higher than neighboring countries. And FWIW, I find that my induction cooktop works wonderfully on plain old 240V 40A, so I do not think it is a requirement to get three-phase for that ;-).
- rootusrootus 5mo ago
  The US is 240V. We split it into two 120V legs for some sockets, and not for others. Some people do choose to get by on 120V, true, but they are the minority. Usually people who do not drive often.
- 5mo ago
giobox 5mo ago
At some stage I wonder if the UK will need to regulate the charger industry. The price gouging is wild in places. If we look at the energy content of petrol, a litre of gas contains about 9kwh of energy, or at average pump prices 1.58/9 = ~18 pence a kwh. For sure, EVs are far more efficient at converting a kwh of energy into forward motion, but if we assume 35 mpg (9.25 miles/litre) for the gas car, we need about 970wh to travel 1 mile. A modern EV can manage a mile on ~260wh, almost a quarter of the gas requirement. There are public charging networks in the UK averaging 92p/kwh - we know we need much less energy to move the more efficient EV, but even with this adjustment fuel cost per mile looks like: petrol at UK average today: 17p/mi Electric at very expensive public charger: ~24p/mi !! At many chargers, there are no savings at all. For comparisons sake, that 92p kwh would be just 28.6p on the most expensive domestic electricity supply, and charging at home would be ~8p per mile on the worst possible tariffs. I've probably done some bad math somewhere here, but I think the broad picture is correct.
- baq 5mo ago
  The market should sort this out by itself, not saying regulators shouldn’t watch closely, but competition should be enough to do its thing. Cartel formation especially should be watched for vigilantly.
- KaiserPro 5mo ago
  dpeends on the car. My Zoe does 4.8 miles per kwhr, my old car does 35 miles per gallon (or 7.6 miles per litre) petrol is currently £1.6 a litre. Which is 21p per mile, for my petrol car at 98p a kwhr its 20p per mile. but in practice the electric car is 3 pence a mile for me (average car charging price for me is 15p a kwhr)
  - giobox 5mo ago
    > dpeends on the car Of course, thats why I've been clear all my assumptions are for 260wh/mi, which I think is a very fair middle ground figure to compare to a 35mpg car - one can pick far more fuel efficient gas cars for this comparison too, the possibilities are endless. I think your numbers still illustrate the same point though; if you can't charge at home, an EV is not necessarily cheaper to fuel, and the gap between the public charger price and the cost to a private consumer with home charging is still far too big. 98p vs 15p is staggering.

iso1631 5mo ago

Given that the majority of people in the uk have or can have access to home charging it's not a major problem https://www.racfoundation.org/research/mobility/still-standing-still https://www.racfoundation.org/research/mobility/still-standi... Wales – 75% of households have – or could have – off-street parking and EV charging England – 68% Scotland – 63% In London, sure, most homes don't have off-street parking and ev charging, but then only half the households in London have a car https://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-2024-car-ownership-trends-acc.pdf https://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-2024-car-ownersh...

benj111 5mo ago
I think you're somewhat underselling the problem. Even in Wales, 25% can't. This isn't a figure you can ignore. And that's a hypothetical, it relies on landlords playing ball etc. then there's the social issues. On the north of England we have lots of terraces built for mill workers, these aren't owned by the richest on society. So then you're in the situation of charging the poorest more for transport. And these are necessarily on towns with good transport links (think 1 bus and hour).
- iso1631 5mo ago
  Many of those "can't" won't have cars. 20% of households in Wales have no car. Now clearly that 25% and 20% won't overlap exactly, but they will overlap a lot When 80% of cars in the UK are electric and 20% are those households who rely on public streets to store their belongings for 23 hours a day, then sure that will be a problem Given that there's only about 2 million electric cars in the UK, yet 18 million homes which can charge electric cars, that's a long way off.

afavour 5mo ago

But compared to the US home charging via a mains outlet is much more viable because it's 240v vs 110v. If you plug you car overnight you'll typically have enough charge to last you the next day.

giobox 5mo ago
This isn't as big an advantage as you might think, as a huge number of US homes have 240v sockets to power the clothes dryer: > https://getneocharge.com/a/blog/identifying-your-240v-dryer-outlet-a-guide-to-powering-your-ev-with-an-ev-dryer-splitter?srsltid=AfmBOooguZvdUveGJgshVDUtnsHh9sYfEaY1f3Us9FoQmC9hNU0wOWdL https://getneocharge.com/a/blog/identifying-your-240v-dryer-... Almost everyone I know with an EV charging at home just reused the 240v dryer socket to avoid paying for a dedicated fast charger. It's often cheaper too to have an electrician fit a new 240v socket instead of the dedicated charger as well.
- baq 5mo ago
  Home chargers with dedicated sockets is three phase 400v actually over here in the EU and every single home, and even relatively new apartments have that because of induction stoves.
  - rootusrootus 5mo ago
    > every single home Let me guess, you live in Germany? :) Three phase power is definitely not 100% in the EU. Not even in Germany, though adoption does tend to be higher than neighboring countries. And FWIW, I find that my induction cooktop works wonderfully on plain old 240V 40A, so I do not think it is a requirement to get three-phase for that ;-).
rootusrootus 5mo ago
The US is 240V. We split it into two 120V legs for some sockets, and not for others. Some people do choose to get by on 120V, true, but they are the minority. Usually people who do not drive often.
5mo ago

giobox 5mo ago

At some stage I wonder if the UK will need to regulate the charger industry. The price gouging is wild in places. If we look at the energy content of petrol, a litre of gas contains about 9kwh of energy, or at average pump prices 1.58/9 = ~18 pence a kwh. For sure, EVs are far more efficient at converting a kwh of energy into forward motion, but if we assume 35 mpg (9.25 miles/litre) for the gas car, we need about 970wh to travel 1 mile. A modern EV can manage a mile on ~260wh, almost a quarter of the gas requirement. There are public charging networks in the UK averaging 92p/kwh - we know we need much less energy to move the more efficient EV, but even with this adjustment fuel cost per mile looks like: petrol at UK average today: 17p/mi Electric at very expensive public charger: ~24p/mi !! At many chargers, there are no savings at all. For comparisons sake, that 92p kwh would be just 28.6p on the most expensive domestic electricity supply, and charging at home would be ~8p per mile on the worst possible tariffs. I've probably done some bad math somewhere here, but I think the broad picture is correct.

baq 5mo ago
The market should sort this out by itself, not saying regulators shouldn’t watch closely, but competition should be enough to do its thing. Cartel formation especially should be watched for vigilantly.
KaiserPro 5mo ago
dpeends on the car. My Zoe does 4.8 miles per kwhr, my old car does 35 miles per gallon (or 7.6 miles per litre) petrol is currently £1.6 a litre. Which is 21p per mile, for my petrol car at 98p a kwhr its 20p per mile. but in practice the electric car is 3 pence a mile for me (average car charging price for me is 15p a kwhr)
- giobox 5mo ago
  > dpeends on the car Of course, thats why I've been clear all my assumptions are for 260wh/mi, which I think is a very fair middle ground figure to compare to a 35mpg car - one can pick far more fuel efficient gas cars for this comparison too, the possibilities are endless. I think your numbers still illustrate the same point though; if you can't charge at home, an EV is not necessarily cheaper to fuel, and the gap between the public charger price and the cost to a private consumer with home charging is still far too big. 98p vs 15p is staggering.