3 ms·

If things are this bad, how exactly does having a lawyer help? Wouldn't the judges be in the rich person's pocket too?

jacquesm 14y ago
Judges are significantly harder to get a grip on than the police. The problem then becomes one of how effective you frame the case. Without a lawyer it is safe to say you're screwed so the police did what they could to make it so our friend would be arraigned without representation. They'd already squashed previous affidavits by another lawyer (who had disappeared without so much as a trace, go figure). So there was a good indication this was going to be a railroading, which was born out by the subsequent unfolding of events. Even so, and in spite of having a lawyer (and a good one) it is scary how close this whole thing came to unravelling. We had several bits of good luck thrown our way (one of which was the involvement of a second judge) as well as a very competent lawyer and together those proved enough to swing the whole thing in our favor, but that was by no means certain and I probably slept about 10 hours combined over the four days while the whole thing played out, and I'm pretty sure Daniel didn't get much more. We're just about done dealing with the aftermath (which is why I finally had some time to write this up). I'll need a whole new set of nails.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  This whole situation has been quite eye-opening. Our (the US) government often likes to hold up India as a counter-example to the oppressive regime in China, but in practice, it seems there is little difference. It is reminiscent of the North Korea vs. South Korea debate, where the US likes to hold up South Korea as an example of how democracy leads to economic success, when in actuality the export-based economic model used to this day by the South was put in place while the country was under a series of brutal US-backed dictatorships that it didn't emerge from for more than 2 decades, when it had already been set on the path to economic success.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    > This whole situation has been quite eye-opening. Indeed. > Our (the US) government often likes to hold up India as a counter-example to the oppressive regime in China, but in practice, it seems there is little difference. I think in general India is a bit better than China, but I'm fairly sure that you could move this whole affair to China with very little difference. The Koreas are one of those scars on the world that will take a century to heal. There are a few others, I have 0 hope that any of them will be resolved within my lifetime. The big losers are the people of those countries used as pawns in a global game of chess that they probably don't even realize is being played. I would not hold up South Korea as being exemplary in anything particular but they're trying hard to make it work.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > I would not hold up South Korea as being exemplary in anything particular but they're trying hard to make it work. I think that, their history of dictatorships set aside, South Korea's economic success should be lauded. I can't think of a single other country that has grown so quickly in such a short period of time, despite the odds being against them. They have little in the way of natural resources, and are a small country. After more than a millennium of being ruled by a backwards monarchy, followed by 36 years of brutal colonization by the Japanese, followed by a horrific proxy war between the US and the Soviets that split the country in two and left it poorer than India and Sub-Saharan Africa, followed by a series of brutal dictatorships, they have managed to become a developed nation with a democratic government. Korean "chaebols" (multinationals), such as Samsung, Hyundai, and LG, have gained worldwide renown, and Korean cultural power abroad (particularly in the rest of Asia) is growing rapidly with each passing year[0]. They certainly received outside help and a lucky confluence of incidents in the global economy, but they have to be given credit for seizing the opportunity. Take a look at this blog post[1] for more info. There are undoubtedly a lot of issues with Korean society, such as discrimination against women, discrimination against foreigners, really messed up schooling that make students work too hard and crushes their creativity, critical thinking abilities, and individualism (no matter what Obama says about SK's educational system), a general societal tendency towards groupthink, and corruption. But that doesn't invalidate what they've achieved. 0: http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/18/3516562/k-pop-invades-america-south-korea-pop-music-factory http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/18/3516562/k-pop-invades-ame... 1: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/02/is-koreas-economy-overhyped.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/02/is-koreas-economy-ove...
- swombat 14y ago
  I've learned to get sleep even (especially?) in such tense situations, but every morning my first though was of this, and my last every evening... I think part of our luck was that the more people are involved, the harder it is for corruption to succeed. India, from what I can tell, is a very corrupt society, with bribes changing hands all the time. If you can get the job done with just the police being bribed, that might cost you X. If you need to bribe the judiciary too, and that includes judges, lawyers, a reputable firm, etc... the costs would quickly mount. And, of course, the lawyers themselves are paid (and not cheaply). Basically, one lesson from this is that if you are facing a corrupt system, enlarging the case, dragging more people, more different groups into it, makes it harder for the corruption to have its effect.

Judges are significantly harder to get a grip on than the police. The problem then becomes one of how effective you frame the case. Without a lawyer it is safe to say you're screwed so the police did what they could to make it so our friend would be arraigned without representation. They'd already squashed previous affidavits by another lawyer (who had disappeared without so much as a trace, go figure). So there was a good indication this was going to be a railroading, which was born out by the subsequent unfolding of events. Even so, and in spite of having a lawyer (and a good one) it is scary how close this whole thing came to unravelling. We had several bits of good luck thrown our way (one of which was the involvement of a second judge) as well as a very competent lawyer and together those proved enough to swing the whole thing in our favor, but that was by no means certain and I probably slept about 10 hours combined over the four days while the whole thing played out, and I'm pretty sure Daniel didn't get much more. We're just about done dealing with the aftermath (which is why I finally had some time to write this up). I'll need a whole new set of nails.

w1ntermute 14y ago
This whole situation has been quite eye-opening. Our (the US) government often likes to hold up India as a counter-example to the oppressive regime in China, but in practice, it seems there is little difference. It is reminiscent of the North Korea vs. South Korea debate, where the US likes to hold up South Korea as an example of how democracy leads to economic success, when in actuality the export-based economic model used to this day by the South was put in place while the country was under a series of brutal US-backed dictatorships that it didn't emerge from for more than 2 decades, when it had already been set on the path to economic success.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  > This whole situation has been quite eye-opening. Indeed. > Our (the US) government often likes to hold up India as a counter-example to the oppressive regime in China, but in practice, it seems there is little difference. I think in general India is a bit better than China, but I'm fairly sure that you could move this whole affair to China with very little difference. The Koreas are one of those scars on the world that will take a century to heal. There are a few others, I have 0 hope that any of them will be resolved within my lifetime. The big losers are the people of those countries used as pawns in a global game of chess that they probably don't even realize is being played. I would not hold up South Korea as being exemplary in anything particular but they're trying hard to make it work.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > I would not hold up South Korea as being exemplary in anything particular but they're trying hard to make it work. I think that, their history of dictatorships set aside, South Korea's economic success should be lauded. I can't think of a single other country that has grown so quickly in such a short period of time, despite the odds being against them. They have little in the way of natural resources, and are a small country. After more than a millennium of being ruled by a backwards monarchy, followed by 36 years of brutal colonization by the Japanese, followed by a horrific proxy war between the US and the Soviets that split the country in two and left it poorer than India and Sub-Saharan Africa, followed by a series of brutal dictatorships, they have managed to become a developed nation with a democratic government. Korean "chaebols" (multinationals), such as Samsung, Hyundai, and LG, have gained worldwide renown, and Korean cultural power abroad (particularly in the rest of Asia) is growing rapidly with each passing year[0]. They certainly received outside help and a lucky confluence of incidents in the global economy, but they have to be given credit for seizing the opportunity. Take a look at this blog post[1] for more info. There are undoubtedly a lot of issues with Korean society, such as discrimination against women, discrimination against foreigners, really messed up schooling that make students work too hard and crushes their creativity, critical thinking abilities, and individualism (no matter what Obama says about SK's educational system), a general societal tendency towards groupthink, and corruption. But that doesn't invalidate what they've achieved. 0: http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/18/3516562/k-pop-invades-america-south-korea-pop-music-factory http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/18/3516562/k-pop-invades-ame... 1: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/02/is-koreas-economy-overhyped.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/02/is-koreas-economy-ove...
swombat 14y ago
I've learned to get sleep even (especially?) in such tense situations, but every morning my first though was of this, and my last every evening... I think part of our luck was that the more people are involved, the harder it is for corruption to succeed. India, from what I can tell, is a very corrupt society, with bribes changing hands all the time. If you can get the job done with just the police being bribed, that might cost you X. If you need to bribe the judiciary too, and that includes judges, lawyers, a reputable firm, etc... the costs would quickly mount. And, of course, the lawyers themselves are paid (and not cheaply). Basically, one lesson from this is that if you are facing a corrupt system, enlarging the case, dragging more people, more different groups into it, makes it harder for the corruption to have its effect.